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Unread 11-04-2003, 02:53 PM   #226
rebayzl
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What is a "Real Possibilty" Vs. an Unreal Possibilty? Example, please.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 03:20 PM   #227
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The best example I can give of the attitude of a "real possibility" is the attitude of Rabbi Yochanon Ben Zakkai. To him, the prospect of the Bais Hamikdosh coming, even aftter 3:00 in the afternoon (l'moshol), was so real that he delayed the korbon. The belief affected his conduct.

OTOH, I guess an attitude of "unreal possibility" would be to say the words "es tzemach dovid......m'hairah satzmiach" but not believe that it can really happen today. Since its not a "real possibility" to him/her, the belief doesn't affect conduct.
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....and (the Jewish people) believed in Hashem and in His servant Moishe.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 03:43 PM   #228
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The second possibilty means just saying words without believing in them, like you saying that the Rebbe is alive while you know full well that this is a falsehood.

To me that is not called believing.

The Jew has to believe that Moshiach can REALLY come today, but at the same time KNOW that he is not sure that he WILL come.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 03:49 PM   #229
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rebayzl,

do you mind explaining what was contradictory?
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Unread 11-04-2003, 04:50 PM   #230
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You cannot believe for sure in something that does not happen.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 05:10 PM   #231
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thats not true at all. there were thousands of people who beleive whole heartedly in things that do not happen lepoel. How many beleived that 3 tamuz would not happen. was it wrong to beleive that? no. and even if it was wrong, they beleived it any way not knowing it was wrong. so it seems you can believe in something for sure even if it is not willed by hashem to be lepoel.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 05:46 PM   #232
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Believing something will not happen or believinmg something cannot happen is different, no? IOW, even the people who have bitochon that Moshiach will come today, admit to the possibility that he might NOT come.

For example: When you fly on a airplane, you have complete bitochen that you will land safely. But you also know that it's possible that you will not. I don't think the two feelings are a stira. Do you, Rebayzl?

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Unread 11-04-2003, 06:06 PM   #233
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and i think that this type of bitochon is what the rebbe had nudged us to have with regard to the coming of moshiach. that he will certainly come like the plane will certainly land safely. is it possible that the plane will not land? sure. it has happened before, and so has it happened that moshiach did not come yesterday. but the bitochon has to be the same. halevai i would beleive this way. it seems to me that rebayzl does not think this type of bitochon is even nessesary. all we need to beleive is that moshiach could come, not that hashem will actually send him bepoel.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 06:46 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebLazer

(It is true. I am a boorish, crude person, and am not impressed by "yechudim" and parlor tricks.)
I just saw an intresting quote relating to this:
"Until the Baal Shem Tov Z'L the avodah of HaShem was through segufim (fasting etc) and thi sgave power to the angels of elokim, the level of tzimtzum. From the Baal Shem Tov on who renewed the avodah of yechudim etc that give power to the angels of Havaya, and the angels of Havaya Tzivakos."
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Unread 11-04-2003, 06:49 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl
You cannot believe for sure in something that does not happen.
I think that you mean that a normal person can not have a belief in something that did not happen. Otherwise what woudl we need Belleviewe for?
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Unread 11-04-2003, 06:59 PM   #236
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Will someone please look up the letter of the Rebbe in Igros v 2 p 233 (and LS v 23 p 394), about the pshat of "achakeh lo", and let us know their conclusions based on that letter?

Last edited by Torah613; 11-04-2003 at 08:22 PM.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 07:10 PM   #237
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You mean the part about waiting for the BEGINING of the geulo to happen today?
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Unread 11-04-2003, 07:52 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid

For example: When you fly on a airplane, you have complete bitochen that you will land safely. But you also know that it's possible that you will not. I don't think the two feelings are a stira. Do you, Rebayzl?
How could you have complete bitochen? You cannot be sure, you just hope and pray and also make a logical conclusion that the chances are very high that nothing will happen.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 07:59 PM   #239
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Tracht gut, vet zain gut. Doesn't the Rebbe have a sicha on this?
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Unread 11-04-2003, 08:11 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
Will someone please look up the letter of the Rebbe in Igros v 2 p 333 (and LS v 23 p 394), about the pshat of "achakeh lo", and let us know their conclusions based on that letter?
http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=40

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=30
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Unread 11-04-2003, 08:30 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
You mean the part about waiting for the BEGINING of the geulo to happen today?
I mean the whole thrust of the letter - the Rebbe's initial pshat is that we await him whenever he will come eventually, and the reason he goes away from that answer is not because that is a lack of emunah, or because
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This means anticipating his showing up TODAY. Hoping and wishing is NOT what he's saying, which is precisely why he's quoted on this point. uch un vey that Lubavitchers don't know this from their own Toras Chassidus
but because he has a problem with the loshon.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 10:58 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebMoshe

I just saw an interesting quote relating to this:
"Until the Baal Shem Tov Z'L the avodah of HaShem was through segufim (fasting etc) and thi sgave power to the angels of elokim, the level of tzimtzum. From the Baal Shem Tov on who renewed the avodah of yechudim etc that give power to the angels of Havaya, and the angels of Havaya Tzivakos."
Source?
I would ask you some questions pertaining to the avodah of yichudim, but I fear that I am not still not yet worthy of understanding.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 11:20 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rachelle
The host of references RL cited is v ery impressive, but with all due respect purely smoke and mirrors screens.
It is easy to dismiss explicit sources as "smoke and mirrors" (akin to parlor tricks, I suppose) to do so, however, without substantiaton, renders such a dismissal rather dismal.

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Thus obviously nossi hador is not the same!
As I mentioned already upteen times -- no one is maintaining that they are the "same." Merely a model, with obvious differences. For example, the "rabbi" today is modelled after the Rabbi of the Talmud, though clearly there are numerous significant differences. Ve'dal.
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Re concern for klal Yisroel, this can be- has been and is - expressed in man ways, some obvious andsome not. To implicitly accuse all other tzadikim etc. of lacking in that is motzi shem ra.
With all due respect, nonsense. Yesh ba'zeh, mah she'ein ba'zeh. As I already explained, but you apparently skimmed and thus did not really understand.

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As a chassid of the Frier. R. surely he believed and accepted it in the sense many write here. In an objective sense, however, could he have meant nessi doreinu of chabad etc. as I wrote earlier?
I don't understand what you are suggesting here.

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What are these obvious objective etc. facts? That's what so many have asked and no one provided.
Again, as already mentioned before:
1. The Rebbe's vast Torah learning -- the yisparnisun of chasidus, the preparatory step to bringing Mashiach. Unsurpassed.
2. The Rebbe's establishment of a preeminent network of shluchim thoughout the world, etc.
3. The Rebbe's personal outreach via letters, etc.
All unsurpassed. All obvious, objective facts.

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Those who accept it have brains, those who don't obviously have no brains...
Maybe you are right. The above is really a no-brainer. Should be obvious to even someone without a brain.

Quote:
Smoke and mirrors, lots or circular arguments, and we are right back to square one!
Your post was disappointing. Allegations of smoke and mirrors, allegations of fallacious reasoning, but not a shred of evidence or logic to substantiate these allegations.

I am sure you can do better.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 11:38 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebLazer
As I mentioned already upteen times -- no one is maintaining that they are the "same." Merely a model, with obvious differences. For example, the "rabbi" today is modelled after the Rabbi of the Talmud, though clearly there are numerous significant differences. Ve'dal.
Please elaborate on this "Ve'dal". Please?
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Unread 11-05-2003, 03:20 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl
I will assume that your other sources are as valid, unless proven otherwise.
Similarly, Rachelle dismissed the sources provided.

Now explained earlier, the bulk of the references was merely to demonstrate precedent for the term Nasi Ha'Dor, outside of Chasidus Chabad.

But one of the sources, from "Sefer Tiferes Shlomo -- Mo'adim," Rosh HaShana, demonstrates more. It demonstrates that every generation has a Nasi HaDor who leads and sustains it, saying clearly that the Tzadik HaDor is, in fact, the Nasi HaDor:

יקראו הצדיקים בדורם. אמנם בכ"ז הנה על צדיק אחד המנהיג ונשיא הדור העולם קיים ודבר אחד לדור וכו'. כי הצ"ע למטה הוא דוגמת צדיק העליון למעלה לכך ר"ג הוא הי' הראש ב"ד והוא אמר מקודש מקודש. ולכך באותו מעשה שם (בר"ה כה) שבאו עדים ואמרו ראינו שחרית במזרח וערבית במערב וכו' וקבלן ר"ג אמר ר' דוסא בן הרכינס עדי שקר הם כו' ואמר ר' יהושע רואה אני את דבריך. שלח לו ר"ג גוזרני עליך שתבוא אצלי במקלך ובמעותך ביום הכפורים שחל להיות בחשבונך וכו'. כוונת ר"ג הי' שיהי' הדבר מוסכם ליסוד עולם שבכל דור ודור צריך להיות רב ומנהיג על פיו יצאו ועל פיו יבואו ואל יהרסו ממנו לעשות כל איש הישר בעיניו כי זהו יהי' ח"ו פגם בעליוני' רק יקבלו ממנו כל אשר יצוה. וזהו שהוכיח לו ר' דוסא בן הרכינס לר' יהושע אם באנו לדון אחר ב"ד של ר"ג וכו'. פי' וא"כ יהי' העולם חרב אך לעולם צריך צדיק אחד. יפתח בדורו כשמואל בדורו ע"ש בגמ' (ראש השנה כה, ב) שזה היה ענינם. מעתה נחזור לביאור הכתובים שהתחלנו בפרשת המלך. (דברים יז, יח) והי' כשבתו על כסא ממלכתו וכתב לו את משנה התורה הזאת מלפני הכהנים הלוים כי כן מלך ישראל הוא המנהיג את ישראל וצריך להיות צדיק הדור כמו שנתבאר
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Unread 11-05-2003, 06:07 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebLazer

Source?
I would ask you some questions pertaining to the avodah of yichudim, but I fear that I am not still not yet worthy of understanding.
I suggest getting a sefer called 'nesiv mitzvosechah' from the Kamarna. Learn it a few times and you might begin to get it.

The source is shaar hiskashrus from the sefer Sharus Yisroel from Rebbe Yisroel of Velednik. I have two copies of the work. A new one, and the older one printed with Lekutei Torah of Rebbe Mottele Tchernobler. (A machiton of the Mittler Rebbe.)
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Unread 11-05-2003, 08:26 AM   #247
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We know that NON-Chabad Chasidus is full with the issue of Tzadik hador. Nothing new in this. But if you accept this, you may as well start wearing Shtreimels and follow all the other customs of Polish Chasidus. It is not Chabad for sure, and it is also not something with more authority than a DRUSH of any kind.

Religious Zionism has much better Derushim proving itself.

Last edited by rebayzl; 11-05-2003 at 12:21 PM.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 08:57 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebLazer

Similarly, Rachelle dismissed the sources provided.
Now explained earlier, the bulk of the references was merely to demonstrate precedent for the term Nasi Ha'Dor, outside of Chasidus Chabad.
The problem is that what he means and what you seem to argue are two different things. His idea of Tzaddik Hador, is not a priori the Nasi Chabad. (In fact he held the Tzanzer Rov as Tzadik HaDor and left his chassidim to go to him.)

You also leave out that there are tzadikei hador who are nashamos kollilos for their eidah, besides the tzaddik hador who is the tzinor for the whole generation.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:35 AM   #249
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RebLazer: your response, tu use your phrase, is very disappointing to say the least. Clearly you did not read properly or simply did not understand.
I spelled out why I dismissed your sourcesfor they areirrelevant and do not deal with our subject. You are confusing a generic and occasional halachic term of nossi in different cntexts with the mystical-chassidic term. To get out of your bind you appeal to a hazy concept of "model". I suppose you mean an inductive argument as opposed to a deductive one. But that, too, is a cop-out for the model does not hold. It is ike saying that apples and tomatoes are fruits and therefore a gezero shovoh. Even in halachah, with real and blatant analogies, a gezero shovoh is not a free-for-all, let alone here when there is none at all. Your example of "rabbi" also fails. In terms of "rabbi" the Tanna-Amora is indeed analogous to the contemporary (ordained and functioning) rabbi. The difference lies in different matters altogether - universal vs. parochial authority whic has nothing to do with the actual functio of the rabbi butwith the time etc. (proximity to original mesoiroh, nishtanu ho'ittim not only physically but also spiritually etc.)
As for yesh bazeh mah she'ein bazeh etc., meaningless mumbo-jumbo. Ostensibly yesh bazeh in Reb Mosheh or Reb Shlomoh Zalman mah she'ein bazeh of the Rebbe; likewise re Satmar Rebbe and the Rebbe etc. Who are you, or I or ayone, to assume the power of tzoifeh nistorois and boichen kloyois volev etc., to know what each one really has and is really doing and achieving from their position, to pass judgment who is the "greatest" etc.?

As for your so-called objective facts: how do you know that the Rebbe's vast Torah-knowledge is unsurpassed? Do you know as much as the Rebbe and all the others to make that judgment? Rather arrogant (as well as ignorant), isn't it? And what of the other nesi'ei chabd whose vast Torah-knowledge is not visible at all (except for their knowledge in Chassidus) - how would you determine their status as nassi hador?
As for the effect o the world: surely you have heard the argument that Torah-bastions like Lakewood and Ponevez etc. have an equal if not greater effect to influence world-Jewry and the world by means of intense Torah-learning and harbotzas Torah etc., albeit in a transcedental and non-visible way (argument of Rebbes re taharas ho-avir by oisiois haTorah etc. !!) and as found in chazal and nigleh and nistar seforim (as well as argument - supported by Rebbe - that limud haTorah in Yeshivos and kolelim does more for the protection of Israel than the army etc.).

So with all due respect, we are back to square one. Perhaps now you understand why i call this smoke and mirrors, or your term of parlor-tricks.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:45 AM   #250
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Further to RebLazer's postings, his reply to Rebayzel and the quote from Tiferes Shloimoh:
n our context, that quote is more than problematic. What do you say about that same R. Gamliel being deposed as nossi, who was then the nossi hador? RG or R. Elazar ben Azaryah? And who was nossi hador when RG was partially reinstated - you now have 2 nesi'ei hador simultaneously! Can a neshomoh klolis cease being so? Can there be 2 (or more) simultaneous neshomois kloliyois? Did RG's neshomoh cmpound REbA or vice versa? etcf. etc. etc.

In any case, as i said, all these references do not help us. If you are looking for concept of neshomoh klolis you have that in chazal and don't need later works. The problem raised remains: a)do you know who it is? b)Is it relevant to know? These questions remain unanswered and unanswerable (and if Leayis feels that this disqualifies me as a Lubavitcher, frankly I really don't mind - and even prefer - not to fall into his category and definition of a Lubavitcher). It all boils down to subjective, personal beliefs on which are built huge "theological" edifices which remind us of the illusory guarded palace in the Baal Shem Tov's famous parable.
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