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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:00 PM   #26
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally posted by lambda
...I was born with skin darker than the rest of the family...
Then I'm sure you know Rashi on last week's parsha, Naso 5:28
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:09 PM   #27
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well bittul lambda stumped you better than me. it doesnt matter who u adreesed your posts to bc they weree answered in a really good way and no matter who answers the facts remain the same. thanks lambda for your imput.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:14 PM   #28
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Interesting that nobody has uttered a word in protest at the designation of the French as baalei taava ... is it "disgusting" to view them in that way? is it not literal? Or do people have no problem with taking that literally, but when it comes to the reference to Blacks in the same quote, all of a sudden it's not literal?

and just wondering, who do you think are the descendents of those Noach cursed to be slaves? Or maybe his curse was not meant to be understood literally?

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One problem with taking that quote from Zikaron Livnei Yisroel literally is that you would be saying that Ashkenaz is definitely Amalek. But at the time of the saying of that, they didn't rush out to remove the remnant of Amalek. Therefore, it obviously means something else.
Obviously wrong. Just as we know we are responsible to teach the world the Sheva Mitzvos, but we didn't until recently because we were unable to, so too, knowing who Amalek is doesn't mean we can go kill them.

Also, saying that Ashkenaz is Amalek can mean that generally speaking, they are, but not necessarily every last one of them. Sancheriv mixed up the nations, and no nation is pure.

Maybe someone knows who it was that didn't look at the face of goyim because he would know by looking if they were from Amalek or not, and then would be obligated to kill them.
---------------------------------------------
about Lubavitchers, actually Jews in general, disparaging Blacks - yes, there are wonderful Black people. But tell me this:

how many Blacks walk down the street, anywhere, and get real nervous when they see an Orthodox Jew approaching them?

do Blacks have to worry about anything at all when they shop or visit a Jewish neighborhood or get on a train with many Orthodox Jews on it? (occasionally I see Blacks shopping etc. and nobody says boo to them)?

Did Jews ever rampage through a Black neighborhood, destroying property and terrorizing people?

do Blacks ever worry about Orthodox Jews (or white people in general) breaking into their homes and robbing or raping them?

do Blacks in Crown Heights have to beware walking in the street at night? Do Black women have to walk in groups for fear of Orthodox Jews?

Mrs. Lapine is dead. Yankel Rosenbaum is dead. They were attacked by Blacks. Frum Jews fled from Crown Heights because of attacks by Blacks and fear of what might happen.

Yes, we need to be cordial and respectful to all people we meet, but don't say that Crown Heights' Jews don't have good reason to be terrified of Blacks.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by lambda
One problem with taking that quote from Zikaron Livnei Yisroel literally is that you would be saying that Ashkenaz is definitely Amalek. But at the time of the saying of that, they didn't rush out to remove the remnant of Amalek. Therefore, it obviously means something else.
Well, Al Pi Din (see Rambam, Hilchos Melachim Perek 1) we can't bzman hazeh get rid of Amalek. And why shouldent it be taken literally??? German conduct was the perfect conduct of Amalek! Absolute kaltkeit no mercy at all!
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:21 PM   #30
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Every human being is an individual human being, different from everyone else, who is responsible for his own choices. Nations, however, have a specific shoresh that shapes them and a sar that guides them en masse.

Given Sancheriv's actions, we can't say that because an individual belongs to a certain nation he necessarily comes from the shoresh of that nation, so we can very liberally not hold individuals responsible for "accidents" of birth. But regarding nations, history bears out that they each have specific natures and qualities in the world which perpetuate and do not change.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:35 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
Interesting that nobody has uttered a word in protest at the designation of the French as baalei taava ... is it "disgusting" to view them in that way? is it not literal? Or do people have no problem with taking that literally, but when it comes to the reference to Blacks in the same quote, all of a sudden it's not literal?
When you say that a group of people is full of baalei taivos, it is understood that it is basically a statistical comment, and that there are exceptions. When you say that a group of people is not human, then that description applies to all of them.

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Also, saying that Ashkenaz is Amalek can mean that generally speaking, they are, but not necessarily every last one of them. Sancheriv mixed up the nations, and no nation is pure.
That is my point. The statement is not meant literally that Ashkenaz is mamosh Amalek. Why? Because Sancheriv mixed up the nations. It is hardly an identification of Amalek. If you were a detective and you found 50 people who could possibly be a murderer with no way at all of figuring out who is actually the culprit, you would not be doing a good job.

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Yes, we need to be cordial and respectful to all people we meet, but don't say that Crown Heights' Jews don't have good reason to be terrified of Blacks.
The Internet is now so advanced that I can reply to your post before you make it:

"Men are attracted to women. Europeans tend to hate Jews. There are always exceptions (people that 'don't follow' the halacha?). Categorizing a group of people by their demonstrated behaviour is much different than saying they are not human."

I'm not going to lie. I won't go to Jamaican neighbourhoods in Toronto unless I have to. That doesn't mean I think they are not human beings.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by HoravDave
Well, Al Pi Din (see Rambam, Hilchos Melachim Perek 1) we can't bzman hazeh get rid of Amalek. And why shouldent it be taken literally??? German conduct was the perfect conduct of Amalek! Absolute kaltkeit no mercy at all!
See my reply to Jude. BTW there is a story about the Vilna Gaon and Amalek. The things you learn from reading Frumteens...

Last edited by lambda; 06-18-2003 at 09:57 PM.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:44 PM   #33
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Well, Al Pi Din (see Rambam, Hilchos Melachim Perek 1) we can't bzman hazeh get rid of Amalek.
Isn't the Rebbe a melech? But he already destroyed Amalek, so there's no problem. That's why we are living in the Geuloh.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:46 PM   #34
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Good point stam. One of the reasons given there is that the Jews are not in complete control, so it is dangerous for the Jews. But if the Rebbe is a "baalabos over everything" like Jude says, and he is also a melech, wouldn't he be obligated to...?
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Unread 06-17-2003, 03:50 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
Also, saying that Ashkenaz is Amalek can mean that generally speaking, they are, but not necessarily every last one of them. Sancheriv mixed up the nations, and no nation is pure.
Regarding the Seven Nations, the Rambam writes "Kvar ovad zichrom" - their memory is lost. The Radvaz says that this refers to Sancheriv mixing up the nations. It is not that we generally know which nation is which but that they are not pure. Their memory is lost.

Note that the Rambam does not say this regarding Amalek.

(Hilchos Melochim 5:4-5)
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Unread 06-17-2003, 06:14 PM   #36
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People, just remember who said that quote, it was the Rebbe Rashab, and it is known what Chazal say (Sukkah 21b [brought down in toras menachem 5712 vol.2 page 47...])אפילו שיחת חולין של תלמידי חכמים צריכה לימוד Therefore, it should not just ne nrushed off by saying "it cant be neant literally".
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Unread 06-17-2003, 07:24 PM   #37
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i'd have thought limud means learning, investigating, attempting to understand etc
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Unread 06-18-2003, 05:43 AM   #38
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jude. you say blacks have nothing to be afraid of. today maybe not but let me tell you that look at the black americans in the south and wherever else that were completely persecuted against by white people. they could be killed, hurt, beaten up at any moment. look at the blacks under the oppresive laws of apartheid in africa, they were killed, beaten up, had no rights etc... yes they had what to fear about and maybe the way a few black people act is because of the way they were treated. so maybe they dont have to be scared of orthodox jews but yes they had what to fear from white ppl and for them jew or non jew white is white.
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Unread 06-18-2003, 06:38 AM   #39
Yankel Nosson
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Quest, I know you are young, and your sensitivity is natural and healthy. As someone once said, "a young person who is not liberal has no heart...and a mature person who is not conservative has no brain."

Your historical examples are true, but they have nothing to do with situation in Crown Heights, or anywhere else. A person who says "black people suffered under slavery, that's why I'm angry" is just looking for a reason to be angry. Jews are postivite, always moving forward and building...how many "revenge killings" were there after the Holocaust? Even when the allies were prepared to let the camp inmates do whatever they wanted. L'havdil you have people in this country living in nice houses and driving fancy cars arguing that they deserve money from the government for "reparations" because of an injustice that happened to their great-great grandparents.

In any event, there is no basis for thinking that all people or all nations are the same. A quick look at African history and the experiences of the African "diaspora" would clearly indicate a poor mazal, at the very least.

Certainly, Jude's original question (subsequently moderated by the moderators) and the follow-ups to it are valid ones, based on a Torah source and not a personal bigotries.
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Unread 06-18-2003, 11:22 AM   #40
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(thanks for changing the thread title- mods, or whoever did it)
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Unread 06-18-2003, 12:01 PM   #41
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i get what you are saying but are you then saying that black jews are cursed jews? does your colour create you or do your traditions and cultures create you?
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Unread 06-18-2003, 12:22 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by quest
i get what you are saying but are you then saying that black jews are cursed jews? does your colour create you or do your traditions and cultures create you?
Every individual is an offshoot of his shoresh, his shoresh being one of the 70 nations. Each nation has it's own "flavor", inclinations, etc. Since Sancheriv mixed up the nations, we can't be sure that a particular Frenchman is really "French" in his shoresh, for example. But the French nation is "French", and will always reflect the characteristics of its shoresh. Traditions and cultures sprout from the nature of the national shoresh. I suppose that an individual who is truly from that shoresh will feel more comfortable with them than one whose shoresh is actually that of another nation.

Regarding converts, it has been explained like this:
When Hashem offered the Torah to the nations of the world, they all refused it. However, there were individuals of those nations who "voted for Torah", so to speak. These are the future converts. When they convert, they are disconnecting from their shoresh in a gentile nation and "grafting" themselves onto the the shoresh of Avraham Avinu. This explains why a ger tzedek is considered a full Jew, though he is excluded from certain things.

Black Jews are not cursed Jews. When a b'nei Ham (whoever they are today) converts, he is no longer cursed. The reason is because he has separated himself from his shoresh, and it was the shoresh which was cursed.
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Unread 06-18-2003, 01:50 PM   #43
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ok cool
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Unread 06-28-2003, 10:35 PM   #44
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By the way, one of the reasons blacks tend to live in Jewish neighborhoods is because Jews are tolerant. Other groups are more violent and more racist. An Italian neighborhood won't necessarily tolerate blacks, and even today some white neighborhoods won't either. Yes, that's right, they will beat them up, burn their belongings and even kill them. There are tens of groups that don't tolerate each other and war all around the world.
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Unread 06-29-2003, 09:06 AM   #45
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uh, I'm not so sure about that
when blacks begin to move in, the Jews move out! The ones who stay are often those who can't afford to move.

back to the idea of "memutzah bein chai lemedaber," I haven't seen it inside, but I learned that the Rambam explains what this means, that there are certain African tribes that haven't even thought of the possibility of a G-d, and it is this that makes them "an intermediary" between animals and humans."

btw - on the subject of "intermediaries" between different levels of creation, the Rambam describes a mouse that is not reproduced in the normal way but comes from the earth and gradually is transformed into an animal. (that would be domem to chai, skipping tzomei'ach)
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Unread 06-29-2003, 09:18 AM   #46
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MOreh Nevuchim (guide) part 3 chapter 71
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Unread 06-29-2003, 05:30 PM   #47
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I heard that every nation has in their history the story of Noach's taiva, in some form or another, except Africans, because they come from Cham, and they were cursed from that story, so they didn't want to keep telling it.
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Unread 08-31-2003, 12:17 AM   #48
Yankel Nosson
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Pursuant to post #42:

Quote:
Every person contains two main spiritual forces which nourish his soul thus influencing his behavior. one spiritual force is derived from the group to which one belongs and the other is his own individual light. An individuals spiritual light might be tainted, through his evil actions, but yet, the light that he derives from his group still remains pure.

Despite the blockages created by the sins of one Jew, he still has access to the positive and holy influence contained by the Jewish group as a whole. This explains why even the sinners of Israel are still loved and given preference by G-d, despite their unworthy behavior, just as a member of a royal family, who does not live up to his hiqh position is still included in the family and receives honor.

Conversely, a person,may be very holy, but still adversely influenced by the group to which he belongs. An illustration of this is Eliezer, the slave of Abraham, who was a very holy individual and even merited to be one of the nine individuals to enter paradise alive, yet Abraham rejected his offer to have his son Issac wed Eliezer's daughter. Abraham told Eliezer: "Although I love you and you are a righteous and holy man, your group, Cannan, is cursed and a curse cannot be allowed to be included in the foundations of the Holy People." There would be no guarantee that Eliezer's descendants would be able to overcome the evil tendencies of the Canaanite clans as Eliezer had done.

source: based on the teachings of Rebbe Nachman of Breslov, http://www.breslov.com/world/parsha/kisaitzai_5754.html
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Unread 10-11-2003, 10:00 PM   #49
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As a person a African descent I must say that you folks(on this site) have not let me down. I left offended, I return to see if anything has changed - nothing has changed. At least you guys are consistent.

By the way, my Tanakh tells me that the only curses HaShem puts on anybody fall on those who worship idols and do injustice and unrighteousness(Is. 58). Propagating hatred which is what Chabad Talk seems to be all about qualifies to me as a violation of Lev. 19:18, 33 & 34.

Also if black people are 'cursed' Moshe seemed not to think so(Num. 12).
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Unread 10-13-2003, 08:42 AM   #50
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if you read the Rashi on Numbers 12:1 you would understand why quoting it doesn't support your point.

this thread is not about emotions, it's about Torah sources
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