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Unread 10-24-2002, 01:47 PM   #151
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I think that the reason you find it disturbing is because of your advanced idea of what you mean when you say "G-d". When someone who learns and integrates Chabad Chassidus says that name, they think Ein Sof L'Maalah Mikol Hagbalos. There is no explaining that, largely or small-y. When the velt says the name, they think of something lower on the Seder Hishtalshelus.

When the rest of the world discusses G-d, they usually discuss Him as He reaches into Atzilus, which is Elokus, or at most Chabad of Atzilus.

I know they wouldn't phrase it in this way, but this is the whole gist of the Baal HaTanya's resolving of the dispute between the Rambam's expression that Hashem is the Yodeia, Yadua etc...and the Maharal who said that G-d is beyond definition.

I suppose that a Chabad seifer would use the term "G-dliness" or Divinity instead.
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Unread 10-24-2002, 02:19 PM   #152
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actually, I didn't give it that much thought, i.e. which level of Elokus they were referring to. Just the presumptuousness of the idea, that G-d, at any level, can be explained, is what disturbed me. Perhaps what I say next is too harsh, but I think that with an introduction like that to Derech Hashem, it's no wonder that Chabad Chasidim can't help but roll their eyes when those ignorant of Chasidus say anything on these subjects. The lack of sensitivity, the lack of bittul, the utter cluelessness, despite their sometimes brilliance and knowledge, is apparent even to a Chabad teenager.
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Unread 10-24-2002, 02:22 PM   #153
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.......a prime example of hubris......
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Unread 10-24-2002, 02:35 PM   #154
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Lubavitchers are reputed to be arrogant. It's because they're so cocksure of themselves, and know they've got the emes, that others perceive this as gaa'va.

and besides - what did you think of that phrase? isn't it the epitome of real arrogance?
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Unread 10-24-2002, 03:42 PM   #155
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As presupmptuous as you found that line in the introduction, the fact is that no hashkafa claims to explain G-d more than Chabad Chassidus. Oh sure, every time they explain G-d, there's the caveat, "we're not explain Atzmus CH"V ..." but every page of maamor explains G-d, clarifies what we mean when we say G-d. The caveat, "We're only speaking of Briah, or Adam Kadmon, or the Kav, or Malchus of Atzilus" is always there, and with the caveat, man comes to explain G-d as well as he can.

The only thing I could agree with you is the phrase "lack of bittul". But that wasn't the Ramchal's line.
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Unread 10-24-2002, 03:46 PM   #156
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I agree with CF 100%
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Unread 10-24-2002, 04:27 PM   #157
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Quote:
But that wasn't the Ramchal's line.
but who taught all you mentioned about Chabad Chasidus? it wasn't a "hashkafa" that taught it, but Rebbeim! Even if people aren't willing to agree that the Rebbeim are souls of Atzilus and even beyond that, they will concede that these were tzadikim and scholars way beyond themselves. And the Ramchal himself, scholar, mekubal etc.
that it wasn't the Ramchal's line is my point! A person we can safely assume is nowhere near the caliber of the Ramchal, studies his work and concludes: wow, this is great, and it enables us to explain G-d pretty much, neat!
The line reflects on him and those like him, not the material.
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Unread 10-24-2002, 04:55 PM   #158
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As they say in Yiddish "stam tzugetshepet" and "krichst of glaicha vent". Taking some phrase out of context and seeing some bogeyman.

That is not the problem, in chasidos we have many statements like these. but I know you cant give up. so stick to your observation forever.
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Unread 10-24-2002, 05:05 PM   #159
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as some say, see it my way or you're benighted
no kidding we have statements like that in Chasidus, but who's making them, or did you not read my previous post
don't like the observation or the response to your comments? no need to be insulting, or can't you help it?
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Unread 10-24-2002, 06:18 PM   #160
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I read what you wrote, and it wasnt understandble to me (wow how diplomatic of me)
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Unread 04-13-2003, 01:29 PM   #161
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I found something interesting about Shaarei Gan Eden in Chassidus. The idea of "lemaaleh mikoach eino chosor hapoel" is found there in pisakh beis, derech beis. There is a hemshekh of the Frierdiker Rebbe that begins by saying everything has a shoresh in the ohr ein sof, but I only saw it in shul once, I don't think I own it. It seems to be directly referencing what it says there.
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Unread 07-27-2003, 11:10 AM   #162
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rebayzl asked earlier in the thread if there was a disagreement between Reb Aron of Strashalah and the Mitteler Rebbe in esser sefiros genuzos. The material on esser sefiros genuzos is in Sha'ar Sheni of Sha'arei HaYichud VeHaEmunah, which I didn't get time to learn on Shabbos, but in Sha'ar Rishon Perek Daled it says that he heard directly from the Alter Rebbe that the moshol of the tzur hachalmish (flintstone) from Sefer Elimah (of the Ramak) is only correct in mocha stima'ah. However, the Mitteler Rebbe uses this moshol in Sha'ar HaYichud Perek Yud for the esser sefiros genuzos in the Ohr Ein Sof!

Last edited by lambda; 07-29-2003 at 10:21 AM.
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Unread 07-29-2003, 09:38 AM   #163
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According this view the Tzemach Tzedek also disagrees with his father in law.

הצ"צ עניינים ע' ק"מ:"והנה ענין ע"ס הגנוזות כפי ששמעתי מרבינו ז"ל פעמי' אמר שהוא ענין ע"ס דעתיק או דא"א ופעמי' אמר שזה הוא בחי' עקודים כו' וא"כ מבואר שלא סמך ע"ז לתאר כן באור א"ס, כי באמת הנמשל לא א"ש כ"כ אפילו לפי משל הנ"ל [דאש בצור החלמיש] שבאבן יש רק כח האש ולא אש ממש דמ"מ הרי הוא כח לאש ולא למים".
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Unread 07-30-2003, 12:45 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by lambda
rebayzl asked earlier in the thread if there was a disagreement between Reb Aron of Strashalah and the Mitteler Rebbe in esser sefiros genuzos. The material on esser sefiros genuzos is in Sha'ar Sheni of Sha'arei HaYichud VeHaEmunah, which I didn't get time to learn on Shabbos, but in Sha'ar Rishon Perek Daled it says that he heard directly from the Alter Rebbe that the moshol of the tzur hachalmish (flintstone) from Sefer Elimah (of the Ramak) is only correct in mocha stima'ah. However, the Mitteler Rebbe uses this moshol in Sha'ar HaYichud Perek Yud for the esser sefiros genuzos in the Ohr Ein Sof!
The Mittler Rebbe never mentions the moshol of the tzur hacholomish in Shaar Hayichud, only Reb Hillel does in his pirush.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 12:55 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by masbir
According this view the Tzemach Tzedek also disagrees with his father in law.

הצ"צ עניינים ע' ק"מ:"והנה ענין ע"ס הגנוזות כפי ששמעתי מרבינו ז"ל פעמי' אמר שהוא ענין ע"ס דעתיק או דא"א ופעמי' אמר שזה הוא בחי' עקודים כו' וא"כ מבואר שלא סמך ע"ז לתאר כן באור א"ס, כי באמת הנמשל לא א"ש כ"כ אפילו לפי משל הנ"ל [דאש בצור החלמיש] שבאבן יש רק כח האש ולא אש ממש דמ"מ הרי הוא כח לאש ולא למים".
See previous post. Also, note the difference between esser sfiros hagenuzos and esser sfiros hagenuzos bi'he'elem ha'atzmus mamash. Likewise, the difference between a hiyuli and a hiyuli atzmi.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 12:57 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
actually, I didn't give it that much thought, i.e. which level of Elokus they were referring to. Just the presumptuousness of the idea, that G-d, at any level, can be explained, is what disturbed me. Perhaps what I say next is too harsh, but I think that with an introduction like that to Derech Hashem, it's no wonder that Chabad Chasidim can't help but roll their eyes when those ignorant of Chasidus say anything on these subjects. The lack of sensitivity, the lack of bittul, the utter cluelessness, despite their sometimes brilliance and knowledge, is apparent even to a Chabad teenager.
But can G-d explain Himself?

Yes He can, and He did. This is the idea of the Shaar Ha'Nun and this is why it has to come as a gift (matan Torah, the fiftieth day of sfira).
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Unread 07-30-2003, 01:30 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by chassidus

The Mittler Rebbe never mentions the moshol of the tzur hacholomish in Shaar Hayichud, only Reb Hillel does in his pirush.
Really? Then my bad memory saves us! I was quoting it from memory, because I don't have that sefer. I was pretty sure I was right, too... masbir didn't even catch me...

Last edited by lambda; 07-30-2003 at 01:52 AM.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 09:50 PM   #168
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Even more interestingly, see Gal Enai's site:

"Even more precisely, Chassidut teaches (in the name of the Maggid of Mezritch) that Ein Sof refers to the infinite light generated by the malchut of Echad. The thought and desire of Ana Emloch (as described above) resulted, spontaneously, in a "surge" of infinite energy and light to enact the creative process (just as the heart of a mortal king becomes full of "infinite" energy and light to materialize his will to rule)."

http://www.inner.org/worlds/einsof.htm

What is the source for this (including the attribution to the Maggid)? Masbir mentioned earlier in this thread that, in general, these ideas are from the Maggid. But where is this written? Somewhere in Ohr HaTorah?

Last edited by lambda; 07-30-2003 at 09:55 PM.
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Unread 09-09-2003, 04:57 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by masbir
[b]OTOH, I saw over Shavous, some footnote of someone in the name of Beis Shar(?) (couldnt yet establish who the author is)
The sefer is Beis Sha'ar HaKavanos and the author is the Sulam.
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Unread 09-20-2004, 09:36 AM   #170
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Re: Sources of Chassidus

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Originally Posted by mendelp
concerning the ramchal. the misnagdim were into his sfarim as an "antidote" for chassidus. I heard that the alter rebbe said concerning his sforim, nisht hoib zei nisht varf zei.
Could someone translate: "nisht hoib zei nisht varf zei."
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Unread 09-20-2004, 11:39 AM   #171
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Re: Sources of Chassidus

Quote:
Originally Posted by lambda
I guess my questions are getting boring...

But what is the earliest source that explicitly states, plainly, that the tehiru ila'ah is before the tzimtzum? Is there a source in the Alter Rebbe's maamorim? I couldn't find one by perusing through the relevant entries in Likutei Torah and Torah Or, but I don't have that much of his Chassidus here.
I can't tell you what the earliest source is, but I can tell you that there is a footnote in RaNaT (p. 77) which says roughly:

Quote:
"In many places in Chassidus it is explained that Tihiru Illaa is before the Tzimtzum, and that the statement "Glif Glifu B'Tihiru Illaa" is a estimation in potentiality before Tzimtzum (of what will be after tzimtzum), and that after Tzimtzum is Tihiru Tataa. See Shaar HaYichud chapter 16 (and other chapters as well, like the first page of chapter 10) Imrei Binah, Chapter 10 of Shaar Kriyas Shma. Toras Chayim, Noach "Vayehi Kol HaAretz" Ch. 23, Samech Vov, "Adam Ki Yihiyeh", Sukkos ATAR, Sukkos TovReishTzadiBeis, and other sources.

It appears that what is written here (in RaNaT) is according to what is written in Torah Ohr at the end of the explanation of "V'Tachas Raglov", that according to the Kabbalah of R' Chaim Vital, Tihiru Illaa is A"K - See Mikdash Melech (not sure of the source here) Zohar Chelek Alef? 15a....?, and Zohar Chamah in the name of the Arizal..

However, if this is the case, Tzarich Iyun on why several places in Chassidus explain differently than the Kabbalah of R' Chaim Vital."
Look up this footnote in RaNaT, and its sources...
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Unread 09-20-2004, 11:53 AM   #172
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Re: Sources of Chassidus

Quote:
Could someone translate: "nisht hoib zei nisht varf zei."
Loose translation: Don't pick them up, but don't throw them on the floor either.
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Unread 12-29-2004, 09:20 AM   #173
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Re: Sources of Chassidus

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About Shtrashela. His dynasty petered out. His son in law and a sizable group became Vilednik Chasidim (his Grandson wrote the Vilednik Toras, and then went off to America where he left the fold). Others joined mainstream Chabad.
who is the Sheris Yisrael then? are there Viledniks in NY?
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Unread 02-06-2005, 05:05 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah
who is the Sheris Yisrael then? are there Viledniks in NY?
Sheris Yisroel is the sefer of the Viledniker. He had no children.
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Unread 02-06-2005, 05:48 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebMoshe
Sheris Yisroel is the sefer of the Viledniker. He had no children.
Reb Moshe great to hear you're still alive!
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