PDA

View Full Version : Driving


Jude
08-20-2002, 11:22 AM
Traffic Accidents: A National Security Issue

by Ariel Natan Pasko

Boom! 1 Arad teen killed and 3 injured, 2 moderately (July 13th). Boom! An 82-year-old man from Haifa and a 50-year-old man near Beit Yanai junction were killed in two separate incidents (July 14th). Boom! 25 Children injured in their bus, during summer camp adventure (July 16th). Boom! In two separate incidents (July 18th), two families from Kiryat Shmona were wiped out. In the first, a 28-year-old man, his 27-year-old wife and their 18-month-old son were killed. In the second, a 50-year-old mother and her 13-year-old daughter were killed. The 53-year-old father was seriously injured. The 5 other children left behind are asking “Why?”

No, I’m not talking about the carnage of terror attacks, but the horrendous evil of traffic accidents. We should be outraged, and we should demand more from our government, and we should do all we can to put an end to this mass murder.

According to my handy dictionary, the definition of ‘secure’ includes: 1. free from fear or danger; safe; 2. free from care or worry; 3. in safe keeping. The definition of ‘security’ includes: 1. state or quality of being secure; 2. protection; defense; 3. measures taken to prevent burglary, theft, sabotage, etc (i.e. damage to life, limb, and property). With the level of slaughter in the streets, road safety has become an Israeli national security issue.

The parents of those 25 youngsters probably thought they were in safe keeping, when they sent them out for a summer trip. The 82-year-old man killed while crossing the street probably was free of fear and worry just moments before his end. The 50-year-old bicyclist probably felt protected, but from all these incidents we come away wiser. By now, Israelis should be fearful of traveling on the roads, but not from terror attacks, which have killed over 500 and injured over 4,000 in 21 months of warfare, rather they should feel endangered because of the over 500 killed and over 34,000 injured (including over 2300 seriously) from traffic accidents, in just the last 11 months. Heck, who needs a war with the ‘Palestinians’, we’re killing each other!

Then there’s the issue of “protection”, “defense”, and “measures taken to prevent damage to life, limb, and property”. National security is about protecting the lives and property of the citizens of the country. Governments rightfully spend billions on national defense. Israel spends over 40 billion shekels on defense each year, yet the National Road Safety Council (NRSC) only receives about 200 million shekels. That’s less than one half of 1% of what’s spent on defense. Yet, the traffic massacre on the roads is happening at twice the rate as the Oslo War, with over 8 times the injuries. That includes lost family members, disabled friends, disrupted lives, endless therapy, lost work hours, property damage and all the other consequences we protest so strongly against regarding the Oslo War.

The Knesset Committee of Inquiry into Traffic Accidents was informed on June 17th about the sharp rise of traffic fatalities in May (60%), and since the beginning of the year (7.5%). MK Nahum Langenthal (committee chairman) reminded the committee, that the number of casualties dropped in 1998, and attributed it to increased funding for awareness and safety programs. But not all politicians seem to be equally disturbed by the ‘Road Security’ problem. Ha’aretz newspaper reported (July 18th), that the Ministerial Committee for Road Safety had its first meeting in 7 months. By law it is supposed to meet every 3 months. Only one minister, Transportation Minister Ephraim Sneh, showed up. The eight other ministers (including Finance, Internal Security, Justice and Education) sent ministry officials, who don’t have voting rights. Transportation Ministry officials expressed regret at the lack of interest, especially since traffic deaths have grown this year. The committee recommended increasing the NRSC budget from 200 to 250 million shekels. That’s a meager sum when you consider that more people are being killed and injured, and more damage is being done to property and the economy, than from the Oslo War. It’s an Israeli national security issue of the first order and they’re barely giving handouts.

I don’t want to get into all the possible recommendations I could make, but I want to point out one problem. Recently, the point system (tracking serious violations) for a driver was changed. Beginning October 1st, a driver will be allowed ‘only’ 36 points, that’s about 10 serious violations in a four year period, before his license is suspended for 3 months. I want to tell you how lenient and foolish that is. Take a typical state in the United States, Illinois for example, a driver is allowed two moving violations in a one year period. With a third violation, the driver’s license is suspended, for a minimum of three months (time varies according to the seriousness of the offenses - it could be up to a year). Imagine, three times; that is, running a stop sign, making a right hand turn where it is not allowed and going a little over the speed limit. Driving under the influence is an automatic one year suspension. Three reckless driving tickets within a one year period also brings a one year suspension. Now that’s incentive to be careful!

On the other hand, here in Israel you can recklessly speed and get caught a few times over 2-3 years, run red lights, dangerously pass on a curve, and generally endanger everyone’s welfare for up to four years, and even then you only get a three month suspension. No wonder there are so many accidents in Israel; there are virtually no consequences to reckless behavior.

“There should be a law about that…” is a famous complaint. Well, truth be told, Israel has laws, but the real problem is enforcement. Whenever you turn around, wherever you look, people are doing what they want. “It’s my right, it’s a democracy,” they tell you. Uneven, or worse, enforcement is the main problem in Israel. When a person has a great likelihood of getting caught, people are more careful not to break the law.

Fourteen years ago, I recommended to our current President, then Minister of Transportation, Moshe Katzav, that the Israeli police develop a separate traffic unit. Well, eventually they did, but too often they are still used for terror alerts and other missions. Israel needs a large ‘consistent’ traffic police that drivers can count on. Strong, consistent enforcement will keep people from taking risks. Stiff penalties will make the costs too high. Realistic fear of losing a driver’s license works.

In a war, you have to use all means at your disposal. The war against road carnage is such a war. Traffic accidents are an Israeli national security issue.

Jude
08-20-2002, 11:24 AM
what about driving safety in other countries? are bachurim and girls generally responsible drivers? what do people think about young people driving? are they more reckless? do they do things that are unsafe in order to be cool or because they think the laws are for old people?

hishtatchus
08-22-2002, 02:52 AM
I think that they are reckless because their parents don't follow the speed limit, why should they? I have yet to find an adult who is Medayek (punctilious) about Dina DeMalchusa Dina- the law of the land is the [Torah] law.

Still, I don't think that Frum teens are as careless as most other teenagers.

mendelp
08-22-2002, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by hishtatchus
I think that they are reckless because their parents don't follow the speed limit, why should they? I have yet to find an adult who is Medayek (punctilious) about Dina DeMalchusa Dina- the law of the land is the [Torah] law.

Still, I don't think that Frum teens are as careless as most other teenagers.
And who says that dina d'malchusa applies to such issues? OTOH if you tell me that a reckless driver has a din of a rodef I would be willing to listen.

hishtatchus
08-22-2002, 03:45 PM
Dina D'Malchusa does NOT apply to traffic laws? I never heard such a thing before... (not to say it may not be true) but the impression that I got is that the law of the land should be followed whenever it does not contradict Torah. Am I misunderstanding?

Torah613
08-22-2002, 03:54 PM
There is a story of the Belzer Rov (R' Ahron ), someone was going on a driving trip and asked advice, he told him 2 things 1) follow traffic laws like the aseres hadibros, 2) if he sees a yid on the way to give him a lift.

ChilinInCali
08-22-2002, 09:25 PM
There's a whole sefer on this subject, proving how a reckless driver has the din of a roidef AND is oiver on dina demalchusa. Forgot the name, will post it when I remember.

hishtatchus
08-22-2002, 11:02 PM
Thanks for validating me :)

mendelp
08-23-2002, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by hishtatchus
Dina D'Malchusa does NOT apply to traffic laws? I never heard such a thing before... (not to say it may not be true) but the impression that I got is that the law of the land should be followed whenever it does not contradict Torah. Am I misunderstanding? a/c to many authorities dina d'malchusa applies only to taxes and the like.

hishtatchus
08-23-2002, 11:17 AM
??? Which authorities? Besides being a Sakana not to follow traffic laws, it's also a big Chillul Hashem!

I don't understand- Dina D'Malchusa seems to be a general statement, not one that only applies to money.

mendelp
08-24-2002, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by hishtatchus
??? Which authorities? Besides being a Sakana not to follow traffic laws, it's also a big Chillul Hashem!

I don't understand- Dina D'Malchusa seems to be a general statement, not one that only applies to money.

for more detail see encyclopedia talmudis under dina d'malchusa. I specificaly was not dealing with issues of sakana etc.

hishtatchus
08-25-2002, 11:15 PM
could you maybe summarize it- I don't think I got it
Thanks

Jude
11-05-2002, 08:56 PM
follow traffic laws like the aseres hadibros

I'm told that following the speed limit precisely, while everybody else on the highway is going faster, is not safe.

There's no question that if ch'v one is in an accident, lower speeds mitigate injuries, but speeding per se is not dangerous.

RebYid
11-05-2002, 09:32 PM
Jumping out of a 10th floor apartment window is not dangerous per se. It's only a problem when you hit the ground.

RebYid
11-05-2002, 09:52 PM
With good tyres, on a dry road:

At 55 mph, your stopping distance is 126 ft
At 85 mph, your stopping distance is 302 ft

So a 55% increase in speed results is a 140% longer stopping distance! Speed IS dangerous.

Jude
11-06-2002, 08:43 AM
but is following the speed limit precisely, while everybody else on the highway is going faster, safe or not?

your window analogy gets points for cuteness though it doesn't relate to the matter at hand

anybody know - what is the primary cause of car accidents?

I would guess carelessness at the wheel due to sleepiness, inebriation, and stam recklessness.

hishtatchus
11-06-2002, 11:35 PM
I drive the speed limit while the rest of the highway is going above it, and I have not seen any safety issues in it! If a car is going faster, they simply pass you!

I believe going slower INCREASES the safety, because you are not tailing other vehicles, and end up with a "cushion" of safety around your vehicle- thus possibly avoiding such horrifying scenarios like the recent 200-car crash in California.

Jude- did you know why they make speed limits? I promise, it's not to give police something to write tickets for! It's for SAFETY. Speeding gives you less control over your car (see physics 101).

Jude
11-07-2002, 12:05 PM
the original reduction in speed limits, so I was told, was because of the energy crisis. Driving faster uses up more gas.

200 cars?! what happened??

hishtatchus
11-07-2002, 11:13 PM
That doesn't explain why you have to drive slower in more heavily populated areas...

As for the 200-car crash- I don't read newspapers, so I don't know details. It happened recently, if you want to look it up somewhere.

Jude
12-01-2002, 06:28 PM
came across this interesting tidbit (though can't verify it):

The Steipler Rav was known to have said that if the Sanhedrin were functioning today, they would have prohibited driving a car. Because of the amount of casualties incurred through car accidents, the Sanhedrin could not have permitted its use, despite the tremendous benefits we gain from cars; the ends do not justify the means.

RebYid
12-01-2002, 06:52 PM
I once heard a statistic showing that more people get killed (proportionally) in accidents involving horses and horse drawn vehicles than motor vehicles.

Jude
12-09-2002, 05:04 PM
<<* Automobile accidents are the leading cause of death for children ages 15-19. In the last ten years, more teens have been killed in automobile accidents than were American soldiers during the 10-year Vietnam War.

* In 1999, there were over 2 million teen driving accidents and 6 thousand deaths. This highway mayhem cost the nation $150 billion.

* One out of 3 teens has an accident during his/her first year of driving.

* Teen drivers account for 7 percent of the driving population, but 14 percent of all accidents and deaths.

* According to police reports, 82 percent of teen accidents are caused by error on the part of the teen driver.

The sad truth is that even highly intelligent parents, knowing they are putting their children at extreme risk, will still allow those children to obtain driver licenses at age 16. They will even buy their children cars, the rationalizations including that (a) they don't want their children to be the "only" kids who cannot drive, and (b) they are looking eagerly forward to the day when they will not have to drive their children to and fro.

Laws allowing 16-year-olds to drive (in some highly rural states, the legal age was 15) were passed by state legislatures prior to World War II, when 16-year-olds were considerably more trustworthy and responsible than are today's teens, on the whole. Matching maturity levels, I'll wager that today's typical 16-year-old is on a par with a typical Depression-era 12-year-old. Consider also that in the 1930s, passenger cars were not able to accelerate from zero to 60 in seven seconds. Mixing a powerful automobile with an immature, oft-rebellious teen is simply a recipe for disaster.>>

pretzel999
12-09-2002, 11:52 PM
I read recently a shocking statistic: forty thousand people die in America every year from car accidents! (IIRC)

rebbelution
12-10-2002, 02:54 PM
I heard that around 2/3 of these accidents involve drivers under 25!
From the driving that I have seen, it seems that young bochurim are not immune to this sense of recklessness, racing at the lights, skidding to stops etc.

lambda
12-10-2002, 03:04 PM
I am still a teenager, and I try very hard to not get my driver's licence. Last time my parents made me take the test, I nearly stopped in the middle of an intersection on a left turn. Instant fail! ;)

Jude
12-10-2002, 03:07 PM
Why DON'T you want to get a driver's license? Want to be chauffeured? :cool:

hishtatchus
12-11-2002, 12:52 AM
lambda- wait, you did that on purpose? ;)

lambda
12-11-2002, 12:58 AM
A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.

rebbelution
12-11-2002, 07:59 AM
What was the Rebbe's take on bochurim / girls getting licences? I heard once that a bochur wanted to get a licence and said that he would use it just for mivtzoim etc. The Rebbe replied "don't mish your taavos into mivtzoim"!

hishtatchus
12-11-2002, 01:21 PM
How 'bout mished arein in Kibbud Av V'Em?
SOK, though- I have a PURE taava!

pretzel999
12-11-2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by lambda
I am still a teenager, and I try very hard to not get my driver's licence. Last time my parents made me take the test, I nearly stopped in the middle of an intersection on a left turn. Instant fail! ;) I don't know whether to believe you on this, you are only a teenager?! wow! your posts show a knowledge and maturity way above your 'alleged' age. and from your spelling of 'license' with a 'c' at the end you must be Canadian (you would not make such a spelling mistake, child prodigy that you are! ;) )

lambda
12-11-2002, 02:47 PM
No child prodigy, merely a Canadian...

Jude
12-11-2002, 02:51 PM
hey pretzel, just goes to show there can be many liars on this forum :rolleyes:

lambda
12-11-2002, 02:58 PM
ChabadTalk put a smiley at the top of this post, and I don't know why!

rebbelution
12-16-2002, 08:10 AM
I posted this earlier but i'll post again anyway.
What was the Rebbe's view on bochurim / girls getting a driving license? Any sources? Thanks

shmush
12-23-2002, 06:59 AM
The main reason for the excess teenage car accidents, as far as i'm aware, particularly with bochurim, is that they don't value their life enough. People, particularly, teenagers and singles in their early twenties, don't realise how lucky they are to be alive and they also dont' realise how it only takes one second to have a crash.

Jude
05-25-2003, 10:05 AM
(as Rebbelution wrote earlier) A bachur wrote to the Rebbe and said that he wanted to get a driver’s license so he could drive for mivtzaim. The Rebbe said: Why are you mixing your own taavos (desires) with my inyanim?

To another bachur the Rebbe said: If you haven’t yet learned how l’hanhig es atzmecha (lit. to drive yourself, meaning to control yourself), how is it that you want to learn how to drive a car?

abiselseichel
05-25-2003, 06:48 PM
The Rebbe once told someone that the FR was a "mushlem" (completely whole), he could ride a horse and shoot archery, however he didnt drive a car. This means that not driving a car does not mean a lacking in a persons shleimus!

Not exact words but the idea.

shoyn
05-25-2003, 08:44 PM
was it archery or an actual gun?

iamachassid
05-26-2003, 04:08 PM
btw i heard that if everyone is going faster than the speed limit on the highway than you can get a ticket for going ont he speed limit. but i have no proof especially since I dont drive yet

Bittul
05-27-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by abiselseichel
The Rebbe once told someone that the FR was a "mushlem" (completely whole), he could ride a horse and shoot archery, however he didnt drive a car. This means that not driving a car does not mean a lacking in a persons shleimus!

Not exact words but the idea.
Actually a saying of the Frierdike Rebbe, that everyone needs to be able to do three things:Drive a car, ride a horse and shoot a gun. However, this was said in pre-Communist and Communist Russia, for the obvious protective reasons. I don't think it applies in America.

Yankel Nosson
05-27-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by iamachassid
btw i heard that if everyone is going faster than the speed limit on the highway than you can get a ticket for going ont he speed limit. but i have no proof especially since I dont drive yet
That's nonesense.

You can get a ticket for going too slowly below the speed limit, though (like going 25 mph on the interstate).

Yankel Nosson
05-27-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by shmush
The main reason for the excess teenage car accidents, as far as i'm aware, particularly with bochurim, is that they don't value their life enough. People, particularly, teenagers and singles in their early twenties, don't realise how lucky they are to be alive and they also dont' realise how it only takes one second to have a crash.
Not the case by chassidishe kids.

It's just that teenagers are less experienced and more easily distracted. Actually, that goes for life in general!

zaque36
05-28-2003, 12:44 PM
<<<<Not the case by chassidishe kids.>>>

Why do you emphasize chassidish?

Yankel Nosson
05-28-2003, 01:01 PM
Generally speaking, there's a pyramid of midos in the Jewish world (plenty of exceptions, of course, but generally speaking it holds).

While it can be said that the average teenager on Long Island doesn't value life properly, my experience with kids from Chassidish environments is otherwise. In my experience they show a much greater sensitivity than the average (as should be expected).

Kids from the "frum" but not "chassidish" world aren't necessarily more sensitive. They might know how to behave (which the non-frum usually don't, r"l), but the children of chassidic communities have internalized it to a much greater degree.

IMO

zaque36
05-28-2003, 01:07 PM
Kids from the "frum" but not "chassidish" world aren't necessarily more sensitive. They might know how to behave (which the non-frum usually don't, r"l), but the children of chassidic communities have internalized it to a much greater degree.

why do you say that? I dont really agree.

Yankel Nosson
05-28-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by zaque36
why do you say that? I dont really agree.
Thus have I observed in my travels.

zaque36
05-29-2003, 08:34 AM
that frum, not chassidishe teens/anyone else value their life less than the chassidishe ones?

Yankel Nosson
05-29-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by zaque36
that frum, not chassidishe teens/anyone else value their life less than the chassidishe ones?

Re-read my post, because that is not the way I expressed it. I referred to sensitivity, not to "valuing" life. L'havdil, even goyim value their own lives (with a few exceptions).

I am saying that there is a greater sensitivity. Less likely to see a chassidische bochur yelling "whooooooooooo!" out a car window.

quest
06-25-2003, 06:18 AM
im a teenager and i have my licence(we spell it like that where i live)and i have a car! i wanna say that many teenagers who just get their licences are much more cautious than adults as they have just learned the rules and are too scared not to keep to them. wreckless people are wreckless people and it doesnt matter their age! resently oi was involved in a car accident- i was not the driver but rather the passenger- and had the drivers of both cars involved not have been speeding nothing wouldve happened but beacuse of the high speed we were all very lucky to have made it out alive! SPEED KILLS!!! and so do wreckless people- and its not that the young mustnt get licences its that the wreckless mustnt- but u cant stop that!!

(why drink and drive when u can smoke and fly?-only kidding)

Bittul
06-25-2003, 10:56 AM
btw - does anyone know if this is true: That speed limits were imposed to limit gas consumption (during WWII?), and had nothing to do with safety?

lambda
06-25-2003, 12:58 PM
Washington set a speed limit in 1909.

RebLazer
06-25-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by quest
Wreckless people are wreckless people and it doesn't matter their age!
Hmm. I agree that a person may be a wreckless driver at any age (take me, for example--I have children who are teenagers).

The point, however, is that more reckless drivers happen to be teenagers than older adults.

(Does proper syntax matter? ;) )

quest
06-25-2003, 02:25 PM
whats syntax?

rosnec
06-25-2003, 02:35 PM
syn·tax (s¹n“t²ks”) n. 1.a. The study of the rules whereby words or other elements of sentence structure are combined to form grammatical sentences. b. A publication, such as a book, that presents such rules. c. The pattern of formation of sentences or phrases in a language. d. Such a pattern in a particular sentence or discourse. 2. Computer Science. The rules governing construction of a machine language. 3. A systematic, orderly arrangement.

quest
06-25-2003, 02:38 PM
thanks

hishtatchus
06-25-2003, 06:03 PM
(Spelling probably matters! ;))

Teens are more likely to be reckless than wreck-less!

zaque36
06-26-2003, 01:00 AM
good point :)

quest
06-26-2003, 07:06 AM
lol

Yankel Nosson
07-21-2004, 03:46 PM
https://www.dmv.state.ny.us/inettrans2/wcCustomPlates.ASP?WCI=empchooseplate&WCU

zaraza
07-21-2004, 10:29 PM
Meinyan liinyan beoso inyan:
In the early years before there were official mazkirus with assigned jobs R' Yisroel Gordon Shy' used to drive the Rebbe sometimes to the ohel and back. One time the he was driving back and the Rebbe was in a big rush because it was late (i am not sure mitzad what)anyway as luck would have it they got stuck by every red light so the Rebbe said to him if you would be so careful in torah and mitzvos like you are with the traffic laws you would be gur a frumer yid.basically he got the hint and went quickly w/o stopping.

RebYid
07-22-2004, 12:37 AM
And the horoa from that is...?

zaraza
07-22-2004, 05:32 AM
stam its a cute story how the Rebbe hinted to him nicely that he should speed up it dosen't have to have a major horaahh
take it or leave it

eizehu chacham...
stam akshan...

just kidding!

ccw22
07-22-2004, 05:07 PM
The Rebbe used to be medayek in those days to come back before shkiya.
If I'm not mistaken, the Rebbe just asked him if he is as careful about Shulchan Aruch as he is about the red lights.