Dina D'Malchusa Dina (The Law of the Land is the Law)

[hishtatchus]

Jude suggested I bring this up as a new thread (there is some discussion on it under Driving)...

When it says that the law of the land is the law, does this apply to every law in the USA? Does it mean that speeding, besides being illegal, is an Aveira?

[shoyn]

ushmartem es nufshoysaichem!

[DTL]

Originally posted by hishtatchus


When it says that the law of the land is the law, does this apply to every law in the USA? Does it mean that speeding, besides being illegal, is an Aveira?

Would dina dimalchusa make something an aveiro?

[hishtatchus]

If it is a Halacha, then it would be an Aveira to go against it, no?

[Jude]

so? what's the answer?
is it assur to jaywalk because the law says to cross at the corner? :ponder:

[TakehBored]

Jaywalking probably falls under the category of a gezeira she'ein hatzibur yochoil la'amoid boh (a decree - law which the public cannot follow).

In Melbourne Australia about ten years ago, the chief of police came out publicly with a campaign to crack down on jaywalking. He launched the campaign with a press conference on a friday afternoon. That sunday a cop gave some pedestrians a ticket for jaywalking, one of them was his dear chief of police, whom he did not recognize in his civilian clothes.

[Being the chief of police he got off easy, only a $10 ticket.]

[Jude]

give us a follow-up report
ten years later - are people jaywalking?

[hishtatchus]

Shouldn't Jews follow even those Gezeiros that the public cannot follow?
I mean, even just for the fact that it would be a Kiddush Hashem?
(But I guess there is no Halacha to actively make a Kiddush Hashem, just not to cause a Chillul Hashem...?)

[Jude]

there is a positive mitzva to make a kiddush Hashem (though I don't think not jaywalking qualifies)

[hishtatchus]

Law-abiding is not an inyan of Kiddush Hashem?

[noahidelaws]

BS"D I'm not sure about the exact Halacha, but there is no question that the idea that being seen to be following the law of the land meticulously causes a Kiddush Hashem is valid.

[Jude]

I inquired and learned the following re safety:

if you want to drive at the speed limit, you must stay on the right
if you stay at the speed limit in the left lane, it is dangerous since other people are moving faster

the other day, a policeman stopped a girl who was driving at the speed limit in the left lane, and told her that if she's driving at speed limit she must be on the right

a guy in Lakewood was driving on the "9" and got a speeding ticket. In revenge, he drove AT speed limit on the 9, backing up traffic for 15 miles. When a policeman stopped him, he said: what's the problem? you gave me a ticket for speeding, and now I'm doing it right! ...

[FlyingAxe]

Sorry to bring an old thread up, but what is the answer? Is speeding (for example) an example of violation of dina d'malchusa dina? If so, does this mean it is an aveira? Is there a positive commandment to follow DM?

[lchaimnow]

The halocho discusses (Choshen Mishpot 369) whether enforcing government laws mandating the collection of taxes/fines is a violation of gezeila. The Rema that says that a government has the ability to make takanos for the benefit of the people. The meaning behind this statement is that, if the law is a valid law - meaning that it serves the people of the country, as opposed to a corrupt enactment - the government has the right to enforce its law. But this says nothing about whether citizens are obligated to follow those laws.

The poskim (see also the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpot, Hilchos Gezeila) discuss at length the rights that the government has to create laws. None of these are in any way connected to any mitzvos (most revolve around some degree of understanding that the government has certain ownership rights of the land/people of the country and can enforce its will therein), and there does not seem to be any issur in violating a civil law - unless, of course, there is a possibility of a Chillul Hashem occurring, chas vesholom.

If anyone does have mareh mekomos indicating otherwise, I would be very pleased to see them.

[Torah613]

Encyclopedia Talmudis will have anything you want to know on this topic.

[FlyingAxe]

Thanks.