Chabad does support Israel

[HindaBatEsther]

http://www.chabadsouthtampa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=44%3AMain+Site&id=114%3Afaqs&Itemid=105#Q:_Does_Chabad_support_Israel

This was asked of Chabad of South Tampa...the answer is that Chabad does support Israel. Not sure why some on this forum think they don't.

[noahidelaws]

It's much more complex. See here (http://a-farbrengen.blogspot.com/search/label/Zionism).

[HindaBatEsther]

It might depend on what Rabbi or authority you ask and your own personal interpretation of what you read. The chabad rabbi's I have spoken to over the years have never said they don't believe in Israel's right to exist or that they didn't support Israel 100%.

G-D certainly didn't allow the state of Israel to be created again if it were not a prelude to the coming of the Moshiach when all Jews around the world will go to Israel. Are we in a Diaspora..yes. I live outside of Israel. Until Moshiach comes all Jews are in a sort of limbo or Golus but that doesn't mean that Chabad doesn't support Israel or it's right to exist. The Satmar yes..they even met with the leaders of Iran.

* note, when I say created again I don't mean it's a new state. Quite the contrary. There has always been a Jewish presence in Israel since we arrived there after our long 40 years in the desert. An Ingathering of the Exiles is what is happening today. Jews from Ethiopia, India and probably from all the lost tribes are coming back to Israel. Anyone who does not support Israel is not a Jew IMO.

[chossidnistar]

* . Anyone who does not support Israel is not a Jew IMO.

wow, it sounds as if someone says something that you don't like, he is automatically not a Jew:smile:

[chossidnistar]

The Satmar yes..they even met with the leaders of Iran.

*.

not true

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3340592,00.html

[Meshulam]

Zionism is a bothersome subject. Lets talk about something more substantive like Shakespeare, Barack Obama, or My Little Ponies. I'm tired of talking about Zionism.

[noahidelaws]

The chabad rabbi's I have spoken to over the years have never said
Proof from absence is no proof.

The Rebbe is vehemently opposed to the idea that the Jewish Agency is currently performing the ingathering of the exiles.

[HindaBatEsther]

How do you know it's the Jewish Agency? Maybe G-D in his infinite wisdom is clearing the path to return of the exiles? Dr's don't perform miracles but G-D can use their wisdom, experience and hands to perform them for us. What's a miracle..seen or unseen..maybe soon we will all see the hidden miracles as well as the obvious ones.

[Torah613]

Hinda - do you proport to be following the teaching of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on this topic? Have you ever studied them (in the original, if possible)? If no - how dare you decide "who is Jewish" based on your own opinions and conclusions?

[HindaBatEsther]

Jews support Israel, that's what I am saying. So you are saying that Chabad , all of Chabad and you personally are stating this , that Chabad does not support Israel? You speak for all of Chabad on this forum?

[HindaBatEsther]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/588289/jewish/1967-The-Six-Day-War.htm

Seems the Rebbe supported Israel ... But I will ask the Rabbi ( a few Chabad Rabbi's) that i know and if they say you are correct, then I will never buy another calendar from them again...

[Meshulam]

There goes one of our sure-fire calendar customers. :rolleyes:

[HindaBatEsther]

not true

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3340592,00.html
Correct, it was the NK's....so who is here on this forum???? Some seem very anti Zionist's here..I think zionism is a beautiful thing and will help to user in the moshiach.

[Torah613]

You did not answer my question. I guess I know the answer. And the article you cite has nothing to do with anything.

[HindaBatEsther]

:eek:There goes one of our sure-fire calendar customers. :rolleyes:
:eek: G-D is watching us...shhhhh...

[HindaBatEsther]

You did not answer my question. I guess I know the answer.
What was the question?

Jews support Israel, that's what I am saying. So you are saying that Chabad , all of Chabad and you personally are stating this , that Chabad does not support Israel? You speak for all of Chabad on this forum?

See, you know if I am a Jew because I answered you with another question. And since you can't answer my question, I guess you won't get my answer.

[Meshulam]

We support the safety of the Jews in the Holy Land. The State of Israel is the unfortunate instrument that is poorly doing the job of protecting the Jews in the Holy Land ad the moment. We do not support that any more than it is necessary to protect the Jewish inhabitants of the Holy Land. (And, incidentally, our methods would be better for the Arabs' safety as well - though their representatives in the PA apparently disagree on the score).

[Meshulam]

Hinda - do you proport to be following the teaching of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on this topic? Have you ever studied them (in the original, if possible)? If no - how dare you decide "who is Jewish" based on your own opinions and conclusions?

This was the question, I believe. I deduced that based upon the preponderance of question marks preceded by interrogatory sentences.

[HindaBatEsther]

That's not a question. You have made a statement. Much like mine based on your own conclusions. Shabbat Shalom.

[HindaBatEsther]

We support the safety of the Jews in the Holy Land. The State of Israel is the unfortunate instrument that is poorly doing the job of protecting the Jews in the Holy Land ad the moment. We do not support that any more than it is necessary to protect the Jewish inhabitants of the Holy Land. (And, incidentally, our methods would be better for the Arabs' safety as well - though their representatives in the PA apparently disagree on the score).
We? So based on your statement you speak for all of Chabad including the Rebbe of blessed memory? Had Israel existed as it does today, in 1936 I believe 6 million Jews would not have perished.

[HindaBatEsther]

You did not answer my question. I guess I know the answer. And the article you cite has nothing to do with anything.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/588289/jewish/1967-The-Six-Day-War.htm
Nothing to do with anything? I think it clearly shows the Rebbe supported Israel.

[MahTovChelkeinu]

Hinda. You need to refine your statements a bit to understand why you are getting push back.

"Chabad" - If by Chabad you mean the Chabad community and the various shluchim within it, then you will get one answer. If by Chabad you mean the Rebbe, then you will get a different answer. If by Chabad you mean the previous Rebbeim (such as prior to the modern State of Israel forming), then you may get another answer again.

"Israel" - Here you could mean the notion of Israel as the holy land, you could mean the Jews living in Israel, or you could mean the modern Israeli state as an institution.

"Support" - This can also mean a lot of things in thought, speech and deed.

For example: Chabad (all of the Rebbeim and their followers) absolutely believe that the land of Israel is a holy land and that the Jews living in Israel and all over the world deserve G-d's protection and blessing. The larger Chabad community have varying opinions about the political state of Israel, but the Rebbeim all agree that the proper method for governing the holy land would be according to the Torah and that is not what is happening in Israel today.

[Torah613]

Not wanting the enemies of Jews to hurt Jews C"V, and hoping they are vanquished, has nothing to do with support for the "State of Israel", or "Zionism", or considering it a prelude to Moshiach (C"V). On the contrary, the Rebbe has referred to it as the greatest darkness.

[Torah613]

For example: Chabad (all of the Rebbeim and their followers) absolutely believe that the land of Israel is a holy land and that the Jews living in Israel and all over the world deserve G-d's protection and blessing. I would broaden this statement to include (almost?) all Jews, not just "Chabad"..
Also, the expression "Israel's right to exist" often used is pretty vague, and can mean anything (probably purposely).

[HindaBatEsther]

Can you clarify "it as the greatest darkness" What is "it" ?

[HindaBatEsther]

I would broaden this statement to include (almost?) all Jews.
The Rebbe said there are no marginal Jews. No Jew greater than the other.
So "Almost" might not be correct.

[Torah613]

The Rebbe said there are no marginal Jews. No Jew greater than the other.
So "Almost" might not be correct.I am not sure what you mean by your comment, where I mentioned marginal Jews and what specific quote of the Rebbe you are referring to.
But have it your way: All Jews believe the land of Israel is holy etc.

[Torah613]

Can you clarify "it as the greatest darkness" What is "it" ?The political State of Israel. Modern day Zionism.
As Meshulam hinted, this has been discussed here many times, and it is rather boring to repeat. Use the search feature of the forum.

[HindaBatEsther]

You wrote : "I would broaden this statement to include (almost?) all Jews."

Ok, so ( almost?) all Jews. It's the almost that bothers me. All Jews believe or should believe that the land of Israel is Holy.
It's part of the divine spark in us to want to be there and to want the moshiach to come. Zionism is the result of that spark. There is nothing
wrong with zionism. Perhaps you do not embrace it but for most Jews it represents hope for the future redemption. I still think it's like building the
foundation of a house before setting up the frame.

[Torah613]

Whatever.

[MahTovChelkeinu]

You wrote : "I would broaden this statement to include (almost?) all Jews."

Ok, so ( almost?) all Jews. It's the almost that bothers me. All Jews believe or should believe that the land of Israel is Holy. It's part of the divine spark in us to want to be there and to want the moshiach to come. Zionism is the result of that spark.

Correct. But that does not mean Zionism is the correct method for bring Moshiach. In fact, the opposite could be true. The biggest complaint the Rebbeim make against the Zionist movement is that it replaces a connection to Torah with a connection to the Land.

[Torah613]

There is nothing
wrong with zionism. Perhaps you do not embrace it but for most Jews it represents hope for the future redemption. I still think it's like building the
foundation of a house before setting up the frame.You are of course entitled to your opinion, but just know your opinion has nothing to do with Chabad (if that matters). It is only your own, and should be protrayed as such. Definitely not a basis to decide who is Jewish...

[HindaBatEsther]

Correct. But that does not mean Zionism is the correct method for bring Moshiach. In fact, the opposite could be true. The biggest complaint the Rebbeim make against the Zionist movement is that it replaces a connection to Torah with a connection to the Land.
Not sure that Torah and the connection to Israel is antithetical to each other. I think they are connected to each other. I agree that the connection to the land should not replace Torah observance but I am not convinced that the strong draw most Jews feel towards Israel is not part of the divine plan.

[HindaBatEsther]

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but just know your opinion has nothing to do with Chabad (if that matters). It is only your own, and should be protrayed as such. Definitely not a basis to decide who is Jewish...
You are Jewish. Ok, so am I. Two Jews, two opinions. Enough said.

[Meshulam]

Torah613 - I believe she just admitted that your objections to Zionism do not preclude you from being a Jew. Congratulations on your accomplishment of finally becoming a Jew in the eyes of HindaBatEsther.

[Torah613]

Yes, I noticed that accomplishment of mine, but did not want to draw attention to it, for fear of ayin horo.

[HindaBatEsther]

lashon hara. This will not improve a negative situation where there is no meeting of the minds so to speak, so therefore this entire discussion is pointless.

[noahidelaws]

Hinda, I recommend you study more about the historical origins of the philosophy of Zionism before you consider what Torah leaders have said on the topic.

[mosheh5769]

http://www.chabadsouthtampa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=44%3AMain+Site&id=114%3Afaqs&Itemid=105#Q:_Does_Chabad_support_Israel

This was asked of Chabad of South Tampa...the answer is that Chabad does support Israel. Not sure why some on this forum think they don't.
We can support someone without sharing or embrassing his point of view or ideology/philosophy, especially when what he thinks is contrary to the Torah point of view. This is what the issue is all about. With 7 million Jews living in the Holy Land, and a constant threat from our numerous ennemies (Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc.) how could it be possible not to be supportive, not for the state but for the welfare of the inhabitants we live in the Land, whoever they are and whatever their religious practice and level, the politics and military included? But it has nothing to do with supporting the Zionist ideology or the lifestyle and poor politic decisions of Bibi Netanyahu.

On that topic at hand, there are many factors to take into consideration and an urgent need to precisely define the terms used in the discussion.

[mosheh5769]

Jews from Ethiopia, India and probably from all the lost tribes are coming back to Israel.

Concerning the Ethiopian and the so-called lost tribes that are being "re-discovered", their Jewishness is highly doubtous to say the least. There plenty of people around the world, and I had more than once the occasion of meeting some such peoples, who claim being Jewish after a "revelation" or because their name sounds "Jewish" or because they have found that in their family, there are some rites who resemble some Jewish rites, etc. There is a tendance in the air nowadays of "rediscovering" all of a sudden his lost Jewishness. But many of those so-called "lost tribes Jews" (particularly in Africa) are simply not Jewish or their statut is doubtous.

This is precisely one of the reasons why we should wait Moshiach. He is the only one who will precisely reveal who is Jewish and to which of the twelve tribes ploni and ploni belong. Untill them the sad truth is that plenty of people who are not Halachikely Jewish or doubtly Jewish have been granted Jewish statuts in Israel, and it has led to a catastrophe (look at the fake Russian Jews who emigrated in Israel, etc.)

It's not up to the "State of Israel" to decide who is Jewish or who is not. They consider Jewish someone born from a goyishe mother, while Torah does not consider such a person as being Jewish. The same with many other criteria established by the politics, as if Jewishness has nothing to do with the Torah and G-d's criteria, and that's one of the lies of Zionism (at least at its origin; it has changed a little since some religious Jews fell in the trap and invented "Religious Zionism" which is an oxymoron).

The Torah and the Holy land can be compared to a soul and a body. The soul is an entity which can exist without the body, but a body needs a soul to live and function. Jews, as a nation, have spent more time out of the Land than in the Land, but whatever country they were sent to, we survived as a people thanks to the Torah. The Torah is our soul, our sustainance, and the Holy Land is our body, so to speak. We can survive without the Land (if not, G-d would have never sent us into golus), but our Land cannot survive, so to speak, without the soul, and it's precisely why we were sent in golus, because we were living in the Land while transgressing the Torah, as we say in our prayers "because of our sins, we were expelled from the Land". But we should never forget that the ideal situation is for the soul and the body to be reunited together, so in that sense, if it can please you, we are all "Zionists" because we hope to come back to Zion and the Holy Mountain of G-d. To achieve that moment, G-d asked us to make complete Teshuvah ("L'alter l'teshuvah, l'alter l'geuloh") and await patiently and steadfastely for the Moshiach to come. Untill then, we are forbidden to provoke the event by our own, and that's when we are no longer "Zionists".

[mosheh5769]

lashon hara. This will not improve a negative situation where there is no meeting of the minds so to speak, so therefore this entire discussion is pointless.
In fact, it's not because there is "no meeting of the minds", as you say, but people are simply tired to repeat and repeat again the same things all the time, as it was said, because if you had read all the existing threads (and there are numerous) you would have understood that it's not the discussion which is pointless, but the new thread you opened on the same subject and the way you're presenting the "Chabad" position based on things you obviously not comprehend enough.

And btw, I still don't understand why the accusation of Loshon Hara is always automatically raised every time someone on this forrum fall on someone who disagree with him. The other thing I noticed is that every time a non-Lubavitcher comes here to preach an ideology contrary to Chabad's position (remember it is a Chabad forum), when we try to show him in a very polite manner that Chabad has another position, the person takes offense, don't want to listen, don't bother reading the answer, and all of a sudden, it become Lubavitcher who are offensive and the like.

Without playing Meshulam's advocate, his remark was obviously humourous in nature, and not an attack on you and needless to say, neither a LH. Read the last sentence you wrote in post 3 and which contradict what you wrote in post 34. That was the reason why Meshulam made some humour. Don't get offended, it was just HUMOUR.

And when T613 said that (almost) all Jews believe that the Land is holy, he is completely right. If it wasn't the case, the leftist in Israel would have been inexistent, the same with secularism in Israel. Don't be so desillusioned, most secular Israelis are not living there because they believe the Land is holy, quite the contrary. For them, the Land is a country like any other country, and Jews are a people like any other people of the world.