Patriotism?

[noahidelaws]

BS"D Since 9/11, there has been a widespread reawakening of feelings of patriotism amongst the gentiles. Also amongst Jews, I hear constant expressions of support of the US, even the proud display of the US flag. To me this trend is worrying, because it seems to constitute an adoption of values which are essentially secular and thus foreign and repulsive to Judaism.

True, there are aspects of truth, many things in secular American law which happen to conform with the Noahide Code, and USA is a “Malchus shel Chesed”, a benevolent government, as the Rebbe said. And there are other national traits which we can emulate.

Still, this is not our value system! If anything, the American state and flag symbolize the golus, Malchus Edom, which is the worst of the four exiles of the Jewish people, hardly something we as Jews ought to be identifying with!

[Bittul]

Considering the amount of times the Rebbe praised this "Malchus shel Chesed" in many different ways, I'd say the Rebbe was a patriot.

[Jude]

I'm surprised you bring this up now, because there are far fewer American flags flying now than last year.
As far as patriotism vs. Judaism, the mishna in Avos says we should pray for the welfare of the government, and of course we need to be grateful towards the country we live in, especially one as benevolent as America.
<<many things in secular American law which happen to conform with the Noahide Code>>
it goes beyond that, because Reagan formally adopted the Noahide Code as one all of humanity should follow
but the warning is necessary - gratitude is not synonymous with adopting values!

[Leayis]

chassidishe yidden dont put up american flags on their houses or cars. its not for a chossid. at the lag beomer parade there was an american flag right in front of the rebbe's bima. but thats a public event and a parade etc.

[masbir]

Mekor? Your Hergesh?

[Leayis]

my hergesh. puk chazee......

[Shlucha]

Leayis, what about Chabad Houses that put it up (I guess for other ppl)? Is that wrong?

(actually, I don't see this often, just right after 9/11)

[noahidelaws]

BS”D<<it goes beyond that, because Reagan formerly adopted the Noahide Code as one all of humanity should follow>>

Don't you mean "formally"?

Anyway, Reagan was a ******ian, hardly one to look up to as an example of the Torah’s approach to the Noahide Code, which must be observed out of a belief in “Torah and Moshe Rabbeinu” i.e. Rabbinic authority.

So he made the resolution, and yes, the Rebbe made a big deal out of it, but that’s a far cry from saying that the American justice system conforms with the Noahide Code. Resolutions are merely symbolic. I found the resolution online and I read some other really, really silly resolutions, and I think that had the Rebbe not made a big deal out of it, we would have dismissed the resolution completely.

If you read the sichos you will see that the Rebbe’s main point is that the resolution was an indication that the gentiles are READY to be taught about Torah and Moshe Rabbeinu and the Noahide Code.

Anyway re patriotism: people personally identify with national traits and subconsciously promote them to the same level as Torah, lehavdil.

E.g. democracy is not a perfect legal system, it’s quite flawed. Granted - it’s less worse than anarchy or communism, but it’s nothing to be proud of. We want a monarchy with Moshiach as our king!

[masbir]

some points:

The AR showed extreme patroitism towards Czarist Russia. (the only part of the AR siddur we have from Kesav Yad Kodesh is his prayer Hanosen tshue Lmlochim)

If I am not mistaken, the Rebbe Reshab wrote (in one of his anti Zionist letters), that davka the Orthodox are the biggest patriots versus the secular who are into revolutions. (In general that was alwyas the view of the Ultra Othodox).

When the FR got American citicinship it was almost a mini Yomtov, he wore Bigdei Shabbos.

[pretzel999]

Originally posted by Leayis
chassidishe yidden dont put up american flags on their houses or cars. its not for a chossid. at the lag beomer parade there was an american flag right in front of the rebbe's bima. but thats a public event and a parade etc. Lea, I GUESS you don't live in New York, where the whole chasidisheh oylem was putting up flags on cars and homes as per a request by rabbonim to show that we, yidden are loyal citizens

[masbir]

You are talking about the Chasidishe circles who are not influenced by the goyim or by those who are influenced. It seems you dont live in CH were the flags are much less than Williamsburg/BP

[Jude]

<<So he made the resolution, and yes, the Rebbe made a big deal out of it, but that’s a far cry from saying that the American justice system conforms with the Noahide Code. Resolutions are merely symbolic. I found the resolution online and I read some other really, really silly resolutions, and I think that had the Rebbe not made a big deal out of it, we would have dismissed the resolution completely. >>

you seem ambivalent on this matter, on the one hand saying the Rebbe made a big deal out of it, on the other hand, saying that resolutions are just about worthless

[Leayis]

Pretzel,

I was thinking of bringing that up before but decided to keep quiet about it, but since you mentioned it i will respond. i think the olam that put up the flags are an olam that does not have proper direction and are hasty to show their patriotism by putting up a flag. their a confused olam even if its thousands of people. es past nisht far chassidim. Dont get me wrong, its not the end of the world but it does show that today's "chassidishe olam" has alot of learning to do about being a chossid or even being a real chareidishe yid.

[Leayis]

Pretzel,

the rabbonim who gave this hora'ah are also a bit confused.

[Bittul]

noahide, All your second post did was repeat what you wrote in the first post.

[masbir]

Leyas I dont know from where you are taking your positions. I dont see why the Rabbonim are confused. I see nothing wrong in flying the flag in a time when your allegiance to your country host can be questioned thats wht Jews did for thousands of Years. Plaese bring proof from Sichos or Torah, not just your feelings.

[noahidelaws]

BS”D << you seem ambivalent on this matter, on the one hand saying the Rebbe made a big deal out of it, on the other hand, saying that resolutions are just about worthless >>

Look, I explained what I meant, that resolutions are not binding on anyone.

The reason I emphasise this is that I have heard the obnoxious opinion expressed that the resolution is ITSELF the attainment of the Rebbe’s words about teaching the gentiles, CH”V.

My main point is that the Rebbe said that the fact that it was passed is an OPPORTUNITY, a sign that now is the time that the gentiles are ready to hear our message, but did anyone become a Noahide i.e. fully adopt the Noahide Code directly as a result of this unheard-of resolution? Of course not, it had a merely spiritual effect.

The task remains for us to actualise this potential for change through an organised global campaign.

[Leayis]

Masbir,

Whats wrong with sharing a feeling? My feeling is that these people have a golusdike complex, and feel proud of this flag thing. a modner hanhogoh. meile someone puts it up as a eigene zach but for rabbonim to come out with this is funny. BTW you say jews did this for thousands of years, what do you mean by that?

[Shlucha]

I'm interested in knowing, Leayis, what's your opinion on what I posted in #7...

[Leayis]

where do these shluchim put the flag?

if its on the side of the Aron Kodesh its not good.

Also you run the risk of having to put an israeli flag.

[Jude]

leayis<<the rabbonim who gave this hora'ah are also a bit confused.>>

quite a shocking statement to make in public, it doesn't do anything to promote respect for rabbonim

noahid.<<it had a merely spiritual effect. >>

"merely"? MERELY?!

about flying the flag - my personal opinion: I understand wanting to express allegiance, yet I also think it comes from a galus mentality. At that time, one year ago, the double standard the U.S. government blatantly held - one for the U.S. (we will fight terrorism) and one for Israel (the poor Palestinians) was disgusting.

[Shlucha]

Originally posted by Leayis
where do these shluchim put the flag?

if its on the side of the Aron Kodesh its not good.

Also you run the risk of having to put an israeli flag.
outside the shul. is that ok?? :ponder:

[untervegens]

There is a big difference between praying for the welfare of the country etc. and being patriotic. For a Jew to be a patriot of anything but Judaism is Avoda Zara.
The Rebbe spoke a Sicha about that on Chol Hamoed Pesach 5748, in which the Rebbe pointed out the Golus'dike Hergesh when one becomes a "ezroch" in a country. The Rebbe spoke very strict about this. This is a concept which is muvon vegam poshut for most european Jews, somehow American Jews could play with such ideas, because they think (exactly like the German Jews in the beginning of the last century [lecheshbonom]) that American Goyim or America or the stars and stripes or whatever, are not under the category of Halocho Eysov sone leYakov!
We have to be greatful to America for being a Malchus shel Chesed, we have to daven for the good of the country vechuli vechuli, but to be patriotic is Heypech Hatorah.

[Shlucha]

Just because a person is putting up a flag outside their house on Sept. 12, does not mean that they are going to assimilate, ch'v, that they are worshiping idols,ch'v, and that they are going to get killed for being a jew, ch'v!!!
It's been taken down. It's done, finished. Even the goyim took it down now. It's seasonal, and now the 'flag' season's over.

But when goyim/ frie yidden ask you why jews aren't patriotic, what do you say? It's avodah zara? We might assimilate, G-d forbid? It's anti-semitic and we can't suppport it? It's against what our Torah says?

Good luck.

[untervegens]

I did not write anything about putting up flags, I wrote about being a patriot, and a Jew should not identify with any goyshe country/culture/way of life/constitution.
There was a American flag at the Rebbe's Lag B'aomer parades. The reason for that derech agav was that there was a Mesibos Shabbos flag there, and the US law is, that when you want to display any flags during a public parade, you also have to display the American flag along with it, or you can't have your flag!
That wasn't some display of patriotism of the Rebbe, but on the other hand you are right, it can't be Avoda Zara either, or the Rebbe wouldn't have allowed it obviously.
What I was talking about was about feeling patriotic, which is a real feeling of identity vechuli, which BTW is the topic of this thread, and that clearly is against Torah. That was very obvious for Jews throughout the last 2000 years, but perhaps in the 21st century in America that shouldn't apply...

[Jude]

I think the main reason frum people put out flags after Sept. 11 was in order not to make a chilul Hashem by NOT putting it out.

[Leayis]

Shlucha,

Outside is also a bit funny. why do we need flags? the best thing is to stay away from flags, period. people asked me why i did not fly a flag after 9/11 and i said that im not into flags and no one had a problem with it.

the frum people in new york (i get the sense) did the flag thing with a certain hislahavus or with some feeling of being proud of it. thats the part i said was not for chassidim.

[noahidelaws]

BS"D <<<<it had a merely spiritual effect. >>

"merely"? MERELY?! >>

I mean to say that in comparison with the Rebbe's aim, viz. 1) that we use this potential in actual Noahide outreach activities, until ultimately 2) the gentiles will adopt the Noahide Code as their binding legal system, the resolution itself was "merely" spiritual. See?

[walter]

Originally posted by noahidelaws
BS"D Since 9/11, there has been a widespread reawakening of feelings of patriotism amongst the gentiles. Also amongst Jews, I hear constant expressions of support of the US, even the proud display of the US flag. To me this trend is worrying, because it seems to constitute an adoption of values which are essentially secular and thus foreign and repulsive to Judaism.


As an American I understand your concern. "Patriotism" is similiar to ones religious service. Emotions run high and one must be careful not to stir or upset the nest. I should say the "values" of Americans vary as they do in your country. There are millions of good people in the United States despite how Hollywood may portray our morals or lack there of. Remember.., the Rebbe chose to live here for a reason. Is it a mistake that Lubavitch is headqaurtered here in the home of the free? This is a difficult time for the United States. Emotions run high and one must be careful not to stir or upset the nest. :(

[Shlucha]

<<Remember.., the Rebbe chose to live here for a reason.Is it a mistake that Lubavitch is headqaurtered here in the home of the free?>>

If you study your history, you see that when the Rebbe came to Amreica, there was not many other options open, anyway. But be that as it may, does that make America perfect ? does that make us compelled to hang up flags, sing the national anthem, have july 4th bbq's and participate in new years day parades????

[walter]

If you study your history, you see that when the Rebbe came to Amreica, there was not many other options open, anyway. But be that as it may, does that make America perfect ? does that make us compelled to hang up flags, sing the national anthem, have july 4th bbq's and participate in new years day parades???? [/B][/QUOTE]

No,we in America are not perfect. I apologise for not knowing the complete history of Lubavitch. However, during this difficult time it might be appropriate to show mutual respect for one another. For the most part all people feel an emotional bond with their country and are proud of their heritage. Americans are not any different than other people especially during a time of crisis. It is my "opinion" that we should honor and respect all peoples heritage i.e., looking for things we have in common and building up the relationship. It's so easy to tear down.., but oh so hard to build up. :classic:

[Shlucha]

<<I apologise for not knowing the complete history of Lubavitch.>>
Sorry for giving you a hard time. You don't need to know Lubavitch history, just world history, but we wont' get into that (some people are just not history people :))

Are we not showing respect? Are we not holding memorial services? Do you not hear a Rabbi mention in his speech at leats once a month something about 9/11? Do you not hear people talking about 9/11 at the Shabbos table (not the most appropraite time, they'll admit, but it still comes up at least once in the course of the conversation, especially if there are non-frum people at the table). Do you not hear kids telling eachother stories about the heroes on 9/11?

On the other hand, does EVERY SINGLE American family have a flag up? Does EVERY SINGLE American person think about 9/11 constantly? I recently saw a survey, and about 40% of American teenagers are sick of hearing about 9/11.

<<For the most part all people feel an emotional bond with their country and are proud of their heritage. >>
Exactly. That is why I would love to go to Israel and I support Israel, and I pray for Israel, and am incredibly proud to be a Jew!!! But an American? Ya, sure I'm happy to be an American not an Afghani or somthing, because America is tolerant and open-minded and good to Jews. And yes I was very sad on 9/11.

But in reality, this is just a stop-off for us, just another temporary resting spot in golus. One day we might wake up and see "our" country, which was so tolerant towards us, suddenly decide to expel us all. And then what will I do? I'll carefully pack my American flag and "Proud to Be American" bumberstickers and tak them with me to wherever my next stop is, and become a "Proud American In-Exile."

[EtzChaim613]

Leayis Wrote the following (Post #13): i think the olam that put up the flags are an olam that does not have proper direction and are hasty to show their patriotism by putting up a flag. their a confused olam even if its thousands of people. es past nisht far chassidim. Dont get me wrong, its not the end of the world but it does show that today's "chassidishe olam" has alot of learning to do about being a chossid or even being a real chareidishe yid.

(Post #14) the rabbonim who gave this hora'ah are also a bit confused.

With all due respect, your lack of kavod for both the chassidish and yeshivish rebbeim who instructed the olam h'torah to actively display their hakaras hatov to a great country that has been kind and accommodating to the observant and non-observant Jew is truly appalling. I am astonished by your lack of respect and your outright dismissal of displaying the American flag based solely on your feeling "es past nisht" rather than based upon daas torah of rebbeim representing the majority of the frum spectrum, from Yeshiva University to Chaim Berlin to Satmar. I believe that based upon the instructions of these rebbeim you should reconsider your statements and apologize for the lack of respect you have demonstrated for our beloved rebbeim.

[Yankel Nosson]

"If you study your history, you see that when the Rebbe came to America, there [were] not many other options open, anyway."

I thought that it was davka with the intention to bring chassidus to the "lower" hemisphere. Something similar with the decision of the FR and the Rebbe to be buried here. Can someone provide more information?

[Jude]

There is the "outward" reason and the "kavana pnimis" - the "inner reason.
Outwardly, it seemed as though x was the reason, while really, the reason why x was picked was because of the inner reason.

[noahidelaws]

<<For the most part all people feel an emotional bond with their country and are proud of their heritage. >>
BS"D Um, please do not take this the wrong way, but Israel=the secular Jewish state, so support of it is, in essence, no different from patriotically supporting America.
I think you mean that you support the right of the Jewish people to control the land, defend themselves, etc.

[WanderingJew]

it's important to remember that in America, Jews are so kindly TOLERATED...but if that is considered home- we are in trouble.

It is a comfortable and safe country to be sure, and allows for religious freedom and many more benfits, but let's not forget that we are only HOUSEGUESTS here.

we have only one country. whether we get there now or when Moshiach comes, very soon, Eretz Yisrael is the place that needs our support and patriotism now.

i don't mean Medinat Yisrael. i mean Eretz yisrael.

it's bittersweet and ironic to see the attachment to the USA and patriotic spirit that Jews in America are displaying so openly these days.
there is room for hakaras hatov, that is for sure.
but at the crux of the issue-America is and will always be a gentile country. is it where we really belong?
i think lots of people are forgetting where their true priorities (should) lie.

[icewolf770]

i don't know who you are that wrote this but thank you... my husband is in the us army, the main reason that he joined was because of sept. 11... i don't know how the otrocitie that occured on that day affected others but i do know how it affected me and my family... i know that being patriotic is considered blase and not something that is admired in many circles...
truthfully the only thing that keeps me going everyday is the words and writings of the rebbe... we are now in an area where there are no other jews... sometimes it is hard to remember why we are here and what it is that we want to accomplish... it also is a test of our emunah and strenghth in our actions... unfortunatly we all have our good days and our bad... i guess i get by day by day... anyway thank you for your words and messege of encouragement...

[Yankel Nosson]

my husband is in the us army
Just curious: are you Lubavitch? Is your husband an Army Chaplain?

[icewolf770]

no my husband is not a chaplain... although he is looking into becoming one... he does regular army work... and i grew up lubavich and he grew up yeshivish... talk about joining of two diffrent worlds

[Yankel Nosson]

More curiousity: Does your husband have smicha? Did he have a connection with military service before enlisting?

[icewolf770]

nope, no previouse military experience and he dosen't have smicha yet...we are trying to find a program that he can do while still in the army (active duty)... do you know of any?

[Shlucha]

one thing that I find really cute/ funny/ bothersome, re patriotism, is HASC's latest Time for Music. The theme is United We Stand, United We Pray, United We Sing ( I might have mixed up the order of pray and sing).

It's funny/ cute because they have these boys from Boro Park, Williamsburg, I don't know where, singing G-d Bless America, the National Anthem, the Pledge of Alleigence, etc. They taught these boys the songs for them to sing just for this. My friends and I were literally expecting them to sing, "Hakadosh Baruch Hu, bless my Ameri-ka (as they say it) my shtub...!!

Bothersome, because why in the world do they need to know those songs??? Thanks to eight years of day school, I can sing them backwards, forwards, and upside down. But that their whole Time for Music should be based on this?

Though actually, it kinda makes sense. Why do they do the Time for Music? to wet people's eyes and then lighten their pockets. And what would cause a person's (New Yorker's) emotions to be stirred in '02 more than patriotism, unity, 9/11?

[icewolf770]

thanks for sharing.....

[Shlucha]

you are so welcome.
Now, if you are thinking of buying this tape go ahead. It will really crack you up.

[icewolf770]

well.... i don't know about that... did they put it on dvd?

[noahidelaws]

BS"D "Do not follow other deities of the deities of the nations surrounding you." Devarim 6:14

Rashi: of the deities nations surrounding you

The same applies to the [distant] nations, but since you see those surrounding you straying after them [the false deities], extreme caution is warranted.

[icewolf770]

Originally posted by noahidelaws
BS"D "Do not follow other deities of the deities of the nations surrounding you." Devarim 6:14

Rashi: of the deities nations surrounding you

The same applies to the [distant] nations, but since you see those surrounding you straying after them [the false deities], extreme caution is warranted.

i'm sorry what is this in refrence to? and could you please explain it?
thanks

[noahidelaws]

BS"D :) sure

We see from here, in the context of idolatry, that due to his intimate knowledge of it, the influence of the idolatry of one's "native" country over a Jew is far greater than that of a distant idolatry.

The same applies to the inclination of Jews living in a country to identify with that country's secular culture, otherwise known as "patriotism."

[Jude]

identify with that country's secular culture, otherwise known as "patriotism."

I disagree with your definiton of patriot. My dictionary says a patriot is someone who loves, supports, and defends his country. I think one can do this without identifying with its culture, though granted, it often goes hand in hand.

[noahidelaws]

BS"D I don't see the difference. I think that that dictionary definition is a nice way of putting what I said, without that yukky word "secular."

[Jude]

I think that based on the Rebbe's references to America in his sichos and letters, as well as his correspondence and interactions with public figures, one can describe the Rebbe as a patriotic American!

[icewolf770]

jude for once i agree with you....
years ago our grand parents who came here to this country used to celebrate thanksgiving... its a time for hakaras hatov to the united states for giving them safe harbor... now we don't celebrate it because we think of it as a goyish holiday....
but what is it that we are really doing? we have effectively tought ourselvs and our children to diregard the torah's rule of hakaras hatov and of loyalty to our country... by labeling it and criticizing it we put a stigma on all that our grandparents and great grands held dear... one can be patriotic and be a "frum" jew at the same time... it is sad when we allow the prevailing ideas from the outside world of sarcasm and disgust for our nation to cloud the true meaning of patriotism...
my husband joined the american army after sept. 11... many people ask him why not the isrealy army... he answers them with... i don't live in isreal... and untill moshiach comes isreal is still a secular state... he saw that what was going on was that the other nations were trying to destroy what we have built here... the u.s. has given safe harbor and the opportunity to progress in our torah and lifestyle in relative peace... and he want's to make sure that those freedoms continue to live on...
now we are here discussing wheather patriotism is a jewish thing... never in the history of the jewish people have we NOT prayed for the welfare of the country... but now that we have it good and we are able to live our lives in peace for so long we have become children who are rebeling... and have become disrespectful of those who "bore" us... the united states has given us a home and an opportunity to live galus in ease untill moshiach comes... there is no other place to go... it is the last door... as for patriatism... we are conected to this country, regardless of how we feel about it.. .we live in it and so we are connected to it... one can be patriotic or not... but to put it into religeouse terms is as if to say... we dont' want to be... and that i think is wrong... we were lucky to be born in the time that we are born in... and to think otherwise is foolish... i am patriotic because i respect my country and its innate desire to do good... does that mean that i agree with everything it does? no.. but i do not believe those two need to be together...
patriatism dosn't go against the torah... in fact the torah tells us to pray for the welfare of our government for with out them man would eat each other alive... to me that prayer is patriatism....

[hishtatchus]

I would think that July 4th would be more Hakaras Hatov than Thanksgiving (if I have the story straight, Thanksgiving is thanking the Indians for helping the colonists through the winter, while July 4th is US Independence Day, when we show our Patriosm/Hakaras Hatov).

But either way, why is celebrating a holiday Hakaras Hatov?

[Jude]

I just came across this phrase in a letter by the Rebbe:

"In this blessed country of freedom and opportunity ..."

how many born and bred Americans refer to their country in such terms?!

[icewolf770]

i do... but as for the july 4th and thanksgiving... i think that both are holidays of hakaras hatov... with out both of those actions we would not be enjoying the freedom of religion that we are now.....

[hishtatchus]

I agree that we should have Hakaras Hatov for what HAPPENED on these days, but why is "celebrating" them (turkey and fireworks) Hakaras Hatov? Maybe paying your taxes is more Hakaras Hatov ;)?

[icewolf770]

taxes is soooo unamerican... it is what we seperated from the british from in the first place... as for celebrating those holidays... granted the form of celebration that they have taken on is diffrent than when they originally started... but lets compare them to our yomim tovim... they are like chol hamoaid... so to speak...and in the way that i have been tought about hakaras hatov, one needs to have a meal and praise hashem for all that He has done for us... so that is the time to thank Him for all that he has done for us and this country.... think about it...

[noahidelaws]

Originally posted by Jude
I think that based on the Rebbe's references to America in his sichos and letters, as well as his correspondence and interactions with public figures, one can describe the Rebbe as a patriotic American!

BS"D The Rebbe sifts the minute amount of good from all the bad (see Tanya ch. 7 - this world is almost completely filled with evil), and tries to influence people to follow standards of justice. But that is a far cry from the notion of patriotism, which implies a blanket acceptance of a country's culture and actions.

as you write:
My dictionary says a patriot is someone who loves, supports, and defends his his country.

Well, we must admit our bias about the people we love. We deny their faults, and even when forced to admit them, downplay them. We will even side with them even when we know they are wrong. And that's the kind of identification that patriotism implies.

I sure hope the Rebbe doesn't fit into that category.

The Rebbe sort of dresses in the "clothes of Esav" by pointing out certain praiseworthy American values. But he surely does not mean to endorse American values as a whole, which is what patriotism and the conspicuous display of the American flag (the symbol of our current exile) represent.

[walter]

Originally posted by pretzel999
Lea, I GUESS you don't live in New York, where the whole chasidisheh oylem was putting up flags on cars and homes as per a request by rabbonim to show that we, yidden are loyal citizens

If this is true.., then Noahide is absolutely correct. What is it exactly that the rabbonim want us to be loyal to? Somehow we must find the perfect balance and not to tip too far either way.

[icewolf770]

Originally posted by noahidelaws


BS"D The Rebbe sifts the minute amount of good from all the bad (see Tanya ch. 7 - this world is almost completely filled with evil), and tries to influence people to follow standards of justice. But that is a far cry from the notion of patriotism, which implies a blanket acceptance of a country's culture and actions.

as you write:


Well, we must admit our bias about the people we love. We deny their faults, and even when forced to admit them, downplay them. We will even side with them even when we know they are wrong. And that's the kind of identification that patriotism implies.

I sure hope the Rebbe doesn't fit into that category.

The Rebbe sort of dresses in the "clothes of Esav" by pointing out certain praiseworthy American values. But he surely does not mean to endorse American values as a whole, which is what patriotism and the conspicuous display of the American flag (that repugnant symbol of our current exile) represent.


i hope that we do not blindley follow people... and that those we are not blind to the imperfections of those that we love... to the contrary we should be aware of their imperfections but love them anyway... that is what my affection for my country is... it is not perfict in fact it has many glaring imperfections, but it is my country and for all that it has given me i apreciate it and i hope that others do as well...
i think that the rebbe knew more about this than we do... he came here from a country with no freedoms to this one and he mobolized forces to combat the inevitable bad that would rise up...
as for refering to the american flag as a repugnent symbol of our exile... that is outright wrong... the flag is a mere symbol, that means much to some, some to many, and nothing to a few... but to put such obviouse hatred and anger behind your words leads me to think that you have seriouse issues about many things to get so angry of a symbol....i can reccomend a good therapist if you want....

[noahidelaws]

BS"D I apologize for and retract the use of the word repugnant.

[icewolf770]

thank you

[hishtatchus]

icewolf770- I don't know if you are still looking, but the Aleph Institute apparently has a program to help Jews enlisted in the US army. It is called Operation Enduring Traditions, and their website is enduringtraditions . org.

[icewolf770]

thank you... actually my husband did get the persons name who runs it or something but i will check out the web site...
its just that living in the middle of nowhere is trying on my yiddishkeit... i just want my daughter to be able to go to a frum school for grade school... and not have any problems... so i am tutoring her but there are things that i need and others that i cannot remember...

[Frumkite]

As an American ... This is a difficult time for the United States. Emotions run high and one must be careful not to stir or upset the nest. :(

I'd say it's time to take down the american flag:


US pressure prompts delay of offensive
"The troops were already rolling late Wednesday when they were ordered to halt. It appears heavy US pressure delayed the offensive to allow diplomacy to run its course."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525844814&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull