Peer Pressure

[Sholom]

ChachChach asked regarding a thread on this subject, so here it is.

I imagine it's to discuss the pro's and con's of peer pressure. How real is it what you do, if it's all brought about by peer pressure? Are things GOOD that are brought about by peer pressure. Do not get ENOUGH peer pressure?

Hope this is enough to generate a discussion.

[Jude]

The following is from the Rambam, hilchos dei'os, perek 6, halacha alef:

"A person's views and actions are naturally drawn by those of his friends, and he acts according to the customs of the people of his country. Therefore, a person should connect with tzaddikim, and constantly sit among chachamim, so that he will learn from their deeds. "

This is followed by halacha beis, which Chachach referred to, about cleaving to chachamim and their students in order to learn from their ways.

In other words, peer pressure works both ways, from good and bad, and we should use peer pressure to our advantage. A melamed from Bnei Brak tells of someone in Bnei Brak who owned a television and got so much flak for it that he moved away. Unfortunately he chose to leave, rather than conform to the higher standards of the place he was in.

[blackhorse]

This sure is interesting. Any personal experiences anyone?

[PeaceInIsrael]

i think a pro to peer presure is when you are surrounded by people who are doing good things ur most likely to do the same, although if u were on ur own u might not.

for example, if u dont always daven mincha (for girls i mean) and u find urself, in a dorm, class or group of girls who always daven. so when mincha times comes around and they all pull out their siddurim etc ur mostly like to do the same.

i think its a good thing..if the reason ur not davening bc u just forget to daven bc ur not used to doing so, so these ppl are sort of like a reminder, "hey, go daven"
but if you are just gonna daven or do whatever else u feel presure to do at the moment to impress them or make u think ur someone ur not, i think thats walking a fine line on being a faker.

some people grow from peer pressure and some people just become two faced, live one life in yeshiva or school and and beomce another person once outside of that enviroment bc the pressure isnt there anymore.
just my thoughts.

[ChachChach]

there is also a lot of peer pressure from schools. i'm not talking about from fellow students-i'm talking about from the system, bichlal. ppl are pressured into fitting one mold, for example, EVERYONE should follow a certain pattern (elementary, high school, sem) then get married and either teach or go on shlichus....

not everyone is meant for one job. some ppl have no social interactions skills whatsoever, but are great when it comes to writing. why should they be pressured to be like everyone else?

[Jude]

I'm surprised you say that because I though in Chabad, unlike other frum environments, in the U.S. and especially in Eretz Yisrael, there was more room for diversity. So even if a bachur isn't that bright or learning that well, in Chabad he can excel in mivtzaim. For an Israeli yeshiva (not Chabad) bachur, it's much worse because whether or not you're successful in yeshiva you've got to stay there or go into the army. For many of them, the army is not an option. Also, jobs are extremely limited there. The same applies to girls.

In Chabad we have respected people, men and women, who have written books, become teachers, done all kinds of things ! For ex. Rabbi Kazin a'h, was one of the first to use the Internet as an outreach tool. He sat at his computer six hours a day. He wasn't in the classroom, but boy did he teach! And you have artistic types who design exhibits. You have a Boruch Nachshon or Michoel Muchnik whose shlichus is through art. There are those who don't give classes but they're great organizers or fundraisers. I think Chabad has room for all talents and abilities. The Rebbe emphasized this tremendously.

[Jac]

Jude has a good point, but I understand where ChachChach's coming from. There definitely is much more diversity within Chabad than in other communities, but the fact remains that for the Lubavitch teenager his/her career in life is basically expected to be shlichus, and the like. C'mon, being a lawyer, doctor, anthropologist, anything!, just isn't in the plans.
[Yes, for good reason, we're onto bigger and better stuff, but it is understandable where ChachChach is coming from.]

[Jude]

It comes down to truly believing I am here for some particular shlichus, or I wouldn't be created. I must discover what my personal shlichus is, within the overall shlichus of kabbolas pnei Moshiach, and go for it!

[ChachChach]

jude, i beg to differ. true all those ppl are looked up to, but while going through the system, you arent encouraged to express your individuatliy at all. its either follow the mold or nothing.

true you have to find your own shlichus withing the larger shlichus, but sometimes, your individuat shlichus will not follow the norm.

if school would really believe in helping students find their OWN place, they would make extracurriculm activities PART of the curriculm.

[Jac]

chachchach, i beg to differ with you. I do not agree that our individuality isn't to be expressed at all. I agree with Jude that a lot of has to do with believing what your shlichus in life is--if it is to be a career woman/businessman, then I can understand you.

Have extra curricular activities--where does that come in with expressing individuality? (Btw, that is why some schools have production, etc. With bochurim, that problem may exist.)
Yes, one may feel stifled if his/her only way of expressing individuality is through dress and external ways.

[ChachChach]

extra curricular activities help you develope what talents you may have. for example, if you have a good voice, there would be choirs (like by production, which, may i add, happen only once a year in some schools). not everyone is the groise learner, and ppl need to develpe what talents they have

[Jude]

Just to make you think ... and force you to confront the issue honestly, here's a question:

What importance is there in a person expressing their individuality or in developing their talents? Are we talking in terms of avodas Hashem? Does anything else matter?

[blackhorse]

Just to burst the bubble. In GENERAL unless you "fit in" your "outa the system". In general people look down on you. This is slowley changing as people realize that there are more and more people (not only lubab) that DON'T fit into the "system". They've woken up too late for some ppl...but just in time for others.

[ChachChach]

in the hayom yom of 23 of teves, its written.
"groaning by itself wont do a bit of good. a groan is only a key to open the work and activities, each person wherever he can be effective, to campaign for bolstering torah, spreading torah and the observance of mitzvot. one person might do this through his writing, anohter with his oratory, another with his wealth ."

so you see, the rabbeim were not against the idea of ppl expressing thier individuality, and in responce to your comment, yes i do mean in terms of avodas hashem. as much as it would be nice everyone could accomplish things the "normal" way, its not possible. if someone is incapable of doing something one way, why should they not be encouraged to develope talents they have in another area?

my friend came over to me recently, and told me that a teacher had approached her and told her " you have a talent for writing! how are you going to use this in your life to do the most good you can?" this is the correct approach. not everyone is alike, and if you pressure ppl to behave like everyone else, that person will either try to fit in and let their other talents go to waste, or rebel.

if i were talking about the fact that every person should feel themselves, then yes, you would have a point by saying that i should search deeply in myself for the honest answer. but im not talking about that. i'm talking about the fact that every person has their own way of dealing with life, and they shouldnt be pressured to be like everyone else. the rebbe was intent on making us all leaders-why are we pressured to become sheep?

[Jude]

I absolutely agree, don't know why you seem to think I don't. Again, just for emphasis, we're not talking about individuality in terms of simply "being me," to "express myself," but using my unique abilities in my personal shlichus.

[Jude]

Here's another powerful quote in Ha'Yom Yom, Nissan 25 :

The individual's avoda must be commensurate with his character and innate qualities. There may be one who can drill pearls or polish gems but works at baking bread (the analogy in the realm of avoda can be easily understood). Though baking bread is a most necessary craft and occupation, this person is considered to have committed a sin.

I think we're all in agreement. The issue seems to be conformity in other areas. Would Blackhorse and others care to specify inwhat areas they think conformity is detrimental. We all have to daven, and we all have to learn. Granted, we're not all created with the same amounts of zitsfleish or brains. So what do you think should be done? (I suggest you take a look at my quote from the Rebbe on chinuch in the Discuss Judaism section).

[ChachChach]

i think one point that was trying to be brought across is that schools dont look at students as individuals, but try to pressure them to conform. like you said, we all have to do certain things, but the ways in which we do them are different. again, i'm generalizing when i say this, but i thnk that schools arent out to get students to excell in their own areas-they want them to excel in what schools' consider the normal areas-that everyone should behave or act in one particular way

[blackhorse]

It's very hard for schools to give individual attention etc. but it is usually the ones who try to do so who end up with some outstanding pupils.

[Jude]

I read this somewhere as a true story (hope to find it again to check for accuracy). Two men meet and one asks the other, we're both fairly equal when it comes to talent and brains. We both know what we're supposed to do, and do it. Why is it that you make millions while I make only hundreds of thousands?

The other man answered: Who are your friends - what income bracket are they in?

The first guy says: Same as me.

Said the other man: The people I hang around with are millionaires like me.

The point being conveyed by the story is, as the Rambam puts it in a different context, you tend to be like the people you're with. Apparently this applies not only to learning good midos etc., but also in other areas - when you're in an environment of achievers, you achieve (or at least you make the attempt ...).

Lest you say, the people made their millions first and then found each other, that was definitely not the case here. Again, hope to find the original, but the point was your level of achievement is based, in large part, on the level of your peers. Yet another push for us to hang around with the people we'd like to be like, even if we're not there yet.

[ChachChach]

very true. your friends can inspire you to go to greater heights, or quench the fire that you have

[Jude]

An experiment was done in which, in a classroom, everybody was "in on it" except for one student. The teacher drew two lines on the board, one obviously longer than the other, then asked the class which was longer. All those in on it, said the shorter line was longer.
60% of the time, the lone student agreed with them.
another 30% were convinced to change their mind to the wrong answer.

unbelievable, no? and are YOU so sure you'd be in the 10%?:eek:

[Wahoo]

>>but if you are just gonna daven or do whatever else u feel presure to do at the moment to impress them or make u think ur someone ur not, i think thats walking a fine line on being a faker.>>

i agree that it isn't good to just go with the flow of whatever's happening at that moment, but on the other hand if the pressure you are getting is to do the RIGHT thing then fine. I mean, if you are with a bunch of ppl (like the example given in an earlier post) who all start davening mincha, and you usually don't, but you do b/c you don't want to be different, or you don't want anyone to think you aren't chassidish or whatever the reason, then that's a GOOD thing. That person should make a point of sticking around the right ppl b/c it gets them to do the right thing. It may show that they have weakness of character b/c they just do what everyone else is doing, but I don't think they're a FAKER. This may be confusing, but do u get my point?

[mendelp]

And if it is faking? G-d created faking for a reason!

[ChachChach]

I guess you're trying to say that if they're going to be swept along with the tide, it may as well be something good:)

[Jude]

hmm, no action in this thread for nearly a year and a half ... is this not an issue for us? :ponder:

check out this article about Conformity by Simon Jacobson:

http://64.49.228.225/html/themes/themes/sept11-107-lech-lecha.htm

[jewgal84]

Wow- it's an important topic, I just came across it now
why'd it stop?

The Rebbe wrote in many answers to people who have questioned going onwards to college etc to earn their degree in whatever it was (aside from shlichus, teaching) etc

And we all know the Rebbe's views on it, that it is a total no-no, aside from the surroundings and peer pressure from everyone there, what makes you certain that once you do have your degree in doctor , lawyer etc, will you officially open up an office? Do you know how many doctors are out there, and thank G-d we dont need them all.
I mean a percentage of graduates, yearly, must exceed over hundreds, and do you actually think they all get a job?

So why waste 4-5 yrs earning a degree which might not even be successful?

Shluchos is a job where everyone, and literally everyone can be successful. Shluchos is a ver broad job, you dont have to open a chabad house or become a teacher to be considerd a shliach/shlucha, anything you do in life, ppl are always looking up * * you and who knows who you will have an affect on.

Our goal here in this world is definately shluchos, and if you 're not capable of openin a chabad house etc, there are various others way on being a shliach.

Dont you think that there are more jews out there that need our help, then there those who need help of a doctor, lawyer etc

Let us be pressured in always doing the right thing, so that we may have the ultimate redemption of Moshiach now!

[hope18]

I totally agree that who u hang out with does effect you and the way u behave in life and the outlooks u have in life.
My father always tells me" tell me who u ur friends are and ill tell you who u are" and i always walk away thinking. that just because my friend act a certain way doesnt mean i do??
but then again dont friends have the same outlook on life and enjoy the same things? otherwise would we be able to communcate. anyway for things i saw with myself and friends
its really hard to have some things ur "machmer" in and ur friends arent in less ur friends are smart and respect you its really hard to keep it going. its sad but u could end up giving in. not even because u want to fit in or dont want to be different "why should i take it out of my time to lay tiffen every day its not like my life is going well ... i dont think that g-d is better to people who keep his torah and mitzvos, this thoughts can arise from the people you hangout with though they dont mean harm, they are to wrapped up in themself to realize,