Consistency vs. Dissonance

[Jude]

In speaking with someone with experience in dealing with problems with Lubavitch youth (and adults) the point that was emphasized was that of a lack of consistency between that which is learned/taught and that which is practiced, is the source of most of our troubles (in addition to a completely different problem, that of friction within families).

Now none of us is perfect, and they were not implying that a lack of perfection is the source of our problem. Rather, the dissonance between what we learn and do is very pronounced in some key areas, and this, particularly for children and young people who are still idealistic, is a source of trouble.

Again, for those who tend to pounce ... perfection is not the point here. The point is whether we are seeing that the people around us, in the Chassidic brother/sisterhood are aiming towards certain goals.

To be specific, take a look at some threads in this forum. I see that besides myself, others are bothered by:

1) Lub. today vs. previous generations, i.e. how we don't seem to be living up to the standards of yesteryear

2) the Rebbe's telling us what he thinks of secular subjects, veltliche zachen, and worldly achievements vs. what we see the people around us doing

3) what it says in Tanya about living l'sheim shomayim vs. what we see around us

4) what the Rebbe expects of us in the summer vs. what actually happens

5) what the Rebbe expects of us regarding Moshiach (all aspects, publicity, living with Moshiach, preparing others) and where we're holding


the reason I started this thread is :
1) to bring the problem to our attention as it was brought to mine
2) to see what others think about this, do you agree? disagree?
3) perhaps if we talk about it, it will have the effect of motivating us and the teachers, Rebis and all of us, to strive to live more consistently with what we learn

[ChachChach]

well, i'm forced to agree with you here:) (dont faint!)

its very true. sometimes, what you know, and what you do are two separate things. its like what the alter rebbe says in tanya-that when you dont employ "daas," then all the emotions you (imagine yourself to) feel are "emptiness" and have no concreteness or lasting affect. there has to be a connection between what you learn and what you actually do.

i'd also like to add another thing to this list-alot of times, things adults tell you to do are in direct conflict with what they themselves do. although we cant base our lives on how other people act, there is alot of resentment when you hear something that you know that person themself does.

perhaps one thing we can do to rectify the situation is to let what we say actually influence our actions. instead of cutting back on our learning, bc we know that we wont act accordingly, perhaps we should all strive to let some of the knowledge influence us in practicality.

[Jac]

I agree with the idea of this thread, though not necessarily do I believe that there is inconsistency in every area which Jude mentioned (but those are for their respective threads). One of the major problems, or perhaps THE major problem today is inconsistency.
It definitely is a big motivation for older teens, and should be important enough to be bothersome:). Seriously, you've gotta think twice if what you may be doing can be perceived in the wrong way. In a way, that raises one's own standards too.

[chabadnik]

This sure is a great subject to start discussing! I totaly agree that the biggest problem today is inconsistency! In this confusing world/time that we live in, it's hard enough to accept and understand e/t as it is. One problem which I constantly see which really bothers me is how many people - I mean respected, chassidishe people - have no problem lying inorder to save some money. If an entrance fee is for example cheaper for children under 12 they'll tell all the kids that can pass as under 12 to say that htey are under 12. Also the way they have no problem copying tapes and software - just to save some money. Now when a child - teenager sees this why should they not turn around and say - "well when it's convinient for you it's ok to be oiver lo signov, midvar sheker tirchak etc. well when it's convinient for me I'll be oiver something else - not even s/t in the torah - just shaving, tznius or maybe even s/t like shabbos etc."
what's the difference?!?!
they are absolutly right!!

[Col]

<<Also the way they have no problem copying tapes and software - just to save some money.>>

Ok, now while copying Software is illegal, still, if you wouldn't be willing to pay money for it (i.e. if you couldn't make a copy, you wouldn't get it at all) I was told that it doesn't fall under Hasagas Gevul al pi Halacha.

Re: stealing, I agree that one of the biggest Nisyonos some Jewish people face today is stealing, some say that it is because in previous generations when the goverments were after our lives it was permitted to rip them off.

But I'm in full agreement with you that one of the major turn-offs is inconsistency, the difference between teenagers/kids who turn out good and those who don't is whether they learn from the things that we do right, or whether they learn from the things we do wrong.

[Jude]

about copying software: I was told that since those selling the software make it a condition of sale that the buyer will not make copies, it is asur to make copies.

just wanted to point out that "dissonance," which means lack of harmony or agreement, though a key element in Lub. kids being turned off, is not the key element when it comes to other frum kids being turned off. How so?

Because other frum kids and adults too, are ignorant of many things that Lub. kids can rattle off without much thought. For the most part, Lub. kids know why we're here, why Hashem created the world, what the purpose of Torah and mitzvos is, etc. Lub. kids have a problem when it comes to living up to the high ideals and standards presented to them, but they KNOW what's going on (generally speaking, yeah I know, there are confused Lub. kids too, see Questions thread).

So even if "kids off the derech" all look the same, those who are involved in helping them can testify that they're really not the same at all. Their ideas of Yiddishkeit vary greatly.

A few examples to illustrate this (again, in general terms): if a Lubavitcher kid goes off, and somebody makes a nasty remark about the Rebbe to him, the Lub. kid will respond vehemently in defense of the Rebbe even though he is personally disappointing the Rebbe with his behavior.

In contrast, a non-Lub. kid who goes off can be heard to say the most vile things about Hashem and Torah etc. Why? It gets back to the "key." Since for the Lub. kid, it's not the "religion" he has a problem with, but living up to its ideals, he doesn't trash it. And since the non-Lub. kid doesn't have a deep appreciation or understanding for what he used to observe, he can speak disparagingly about it.

A Lub. kid who goes off (usually) still considers himself Lub.! while a non-Lub. kid who goes off is just off.

What it goes to show is, how deep an effect Chassidus has on us. This insight should provide chizuk to us all. We have a lot more going for us than we realize.

[ChachChach]

very interesting observation.



<<Since for the Lub. kid, it's not the "religion" he has a problem with, but living up to its ideals, he doesn't trash it.>>

i heard also that a big difference between lubabs going off the derech and others, is that since, as you pointed out, they basically have a problem with measuring up to the standards, they'll go off teh derech gradually. they wont chuck everything out the window all at once.

other ppl, however, go right from lange pai'os to nothing


and another interesting observation: when someone goes off the derech in lubab, we still consider them part of us-we wont disown them. in other places, its not so simple. they could get thrown out of the community for being that way. (hence the fact that so many ppl claim that most of the frei ppl are lubabs....bc once a lubab, always a lubab:))

[iamachassid]

For some teens the inconsistency and the double standards totally throw them off, make them unwilling to have much to do with yiddishkeit, lubavitch. But even if a person is willing to disregard external inconsistency and try their best to live according to truth it's very hard to know what's the truth, to keep clear-headed about it and to stick with it.

[Jude]

it's very hard to know what's the truth,

why?

so you don't agree with the above posts that say that Lubavitchers mostly DO know what the truth is?

[hishtatchus]

We know truth as a concept, but we don't necessarily recognize it in the small struggles.

[iamachassid]

hish. is right and when there are so many different opinions and people behave in so many different ways it's even harder to be sure of hte truth

[Jude]

Originally posted by hishtatchus
We know truth as a concept, but we don't necessarily recognize it in the small struggles.

I'm sorry, I don't understand that. Maybe you can explain.

when there are so many different opinions and people behave in so many different ways it's even harder to be sure of hte truth

different opinions in Torah? behaving in different ways according to Torah?

if not Torah-based, why should their opinions and behavior confuse you?

[iamachassid]

Not necessarilly in Torah but interpretations and lenineces of Torah. Aseh lecha rav, figure it out for yourself etc. but it can still be hard.