Non-Jewish Music

[Shmoozer]

what does one do in an uncomfterable situation where you are sitting in a car where they are playing something you dont approve of.....
If you say something it may appear as if you are trying to look better than them, or you might just embaress them unintentionally.
Any good ideas of what to say?

[Jude]

in car services I've asked them to please shut the music
I'm a paying customer, and I can make that request.
I've also commented in Jewish stores, making my Jewish music needs clear so they know what their customers want.

[Shmoozer]

yeah but what about when you are in a car on the way to school?
and your friend is listening to it, and her mother doesnt seem to care.. how can you tell your friend nicely that you just dont listen to this stuff???
I dont want to seem like im being a goody goody...but its important to me!!!

[noahidelaws]

BS"D If she's truly a friend, she'll understand.
Anyway, perhaps you could take a walkman with you and listen to Jewish music.

[Dr. Yisroel]

It's a big problem and a hard call. The Gemara says, olah rasha olah shchonoy - the people one goes with do have infuence on them whether they like it or not.

There is really nothing you can do. If you choose to go with these individuals, you will have to put up with their shtick.

[RebYid]

What would you say if someone in the car was smoking, and you objected to that?

[Jude]

whether smoking or non-Jewish music - she's getting a favor from them, so unless she can think of a nice way to get them to stop, she has to resort to the Walkman idea

[Shmoozer]

noahide thanx for your idea, ive tried that, but i guess even thought it is a nuisance to do it all the time, its what i gotta do, if i dont wanna listen to it.

rebyid- smoking is just a different situation, though u make it seem like its just stam so easy to respond to such situations, its much harder when you are in the actuall circumstance.

thanx for all your ideas, i guess ill just have to stick with the walkman idea for now, unless anyone has any good lines to say, since its getting a little out of hand!

[Dr. Yisroel]

Buy nature people grravitate towards the truth. Emes is contageous!

If you stick up for what you think is right, at first they will be against you, eventually they will join in.

If you let them rule, they will rule. We must be leaders!

[shliach770]

Originally posted by Dr. Yisroel
It's a big problem and a hard call. The Gemara says, olah rasha olah shchonoy - the people one goes with do have infuence on them whether they like it or not.

There is really nothing you can do. If you choose to go with these individuals, you will have to put up with their shtick.

You can either learn from them or teach them. Perhaps you can give them a jewish tape/CD.

[Shmoozer]

thank you, Dr. Yisroel for your advice, I think that will work in this case!!! slowly maybe they will just realize how uncomfterable it is for me, and why i feel like this, and maybe they too will slowly IY"H come to realize whats not proper in doing these actions!!

Shliach770- thanx for ur help, I will keep this in mind when traveling with them tomorrow!

[RebYid]

Are they Chassidim? If so, why can't you just say that we don't listen to such music?

[Shmoozer]

thats the problem!! they arent exactly lubavitch!!! so i wouldnt want it to embaress them, it wouldnt look good on me or lubavitch!!
This girl has actually been to a lubavitch camp, and they are close to lubavitch but that still doesnt help the sitch! she knows its bad, but she has involved herself so far with this shtus that it seems as if she didnt go to the camp at all!
She might understand my problem , but if she didnt then i wouldnt want to result in chaos, (they get tempermental over nothing) and her mother wouldnt understand my views on non- jewish music. I wouldnt want to get in such an argument where I will have to back my views up, b/c thats just getting a little too far!
But, back to my original quirk, (sorry i got a little off track) just a nice way to say... enuf! shut it off!!!
until i find a nice way to deal with the situation, ill just wear the walkman.

[Dr. Yisroel]

Wearing a walkman, though, it is a good idea. It too is making a strong statement. Which in result may offend them in a way which is not proper; it may send the wrong message.

I think society has taught us that it is wrong to be open with people. We need to beat around the bush. We need to find an "excuse".

as a result we have become prisoners of our own actions. Constantly trying to find excuses. rthis ultimately breaks up freindships, marraiges, etc.

Why can't you be open with them. If they are real freinds they will understand. Simillar to "smoking" as someone metioned before. If someone would be smoking you would tell them to stop immediatly.

I understand to be open to them would take courage. The rest is up to you. I wish you much success.

[hishtatchus]

You can also tell them that you don't expect them to change because of you, and that you respect their decision too, but that you feel that since listening is too much of a temptation, you will bring a walkman.

[Yankel Nosson]

Perhaps if you phrase it to them in a way which indicates clearly that you are following a restriction, not trying to put one on them. For example (forgive the stiff language):

"I feel bad to even mention such a thing when you are being so kind as to drive me, but my mashpia stressed to me the importance of maintaining our idea of purity in certain things, such as music. He reminded me that for us it's considered the same as the other shmiras we are careful about, so I hope you won't be offended that I wear the headphones while this kind of music is playing."

They might "take pity" on you and volunteer not to play it while you are in the car. But at least you will be upfront and honest without making them feel bad.


I didn't notice hishtatchus's previous comment, which basically conveys the same idea.

[sunny]

I agree with that, and they will respect you for it.

[Shmoozer]

Yes!!! thanx everyone!!!
IY"H we will only see the best after this!
thanx for all ur help and advice, it will come to great use!

[EtzChaim613]

Originally posted by Shmoozer
what does one do in an uncomfterable situation where you are sitting in a car where they are playing something you dont approve of.....


I don't think that this has been asked yet. . . but, what type of music is your friend playing that you don't approve of? Is is Heavy Metal, Rap, Rock and Roll? Or is it classical music? Or is it possible non-Chassidish Jewish Music?

I think that we need more information to come to a concensus on the best method to approach the situation.

[Jude]

and which group is it, and are they playing the radio, a cassette or CD's, and if you could tell us the lyrics - that would be helpful too :cool:

[Shmoozer]

its heavy rock i think, b'h i dont really know!!!
sometimes its the radio and other times its a CD, but what really bothers me is her brothers who are old enough shouldnt be listening to women singing anymore!!!
the songs are pretty bad! i wont describe! but thats whats so disgusting!!!

[Sky'sTheLimit]

gr8 ideas e/1 and shmoozer, oysh, its hard being put into such a tough sitch! but obviously, if Hashem gave u that nisayon, it means that U R STRONG and u can overcome it!! my prayers r with u! (LOL)
good luck!!!!!!!

[noahidelaws]

Originally posted by EtzChaim613
what type of music is your friend playing that you don't approve of? Is is Heavy Metal, Rap, Rock and Roll? Or is it classical music? Or is it possible non-Chassidish Jewish Music?

BS"D When I first read it, I had no doubt that when Smoozer said "something you dont approve of....." she meant non-Jewish, crude music. But classical music is also objectionable according to Chassidus, though not to the same degree as the former type.

[Yankel Nosson]

classical music is also objectionable according to Chassidus
Can you outline the reason, and perhaps point us to sources?

[zaque36]

Shmoozer-maybe bring along a tape/cd and tell them it's ur favorite tape or s/t and if they don't mind putting it on. Remember that when you wear the walkman its like the tzaddik in peltz...

[Shmoozer]

Thats a great idea zaque!!! thanx
but whats the tzaddik of peltz?

[Yankel Nosson]

A tzaddik in peltz keeps himself warm, as opposed to the tzaddik who lights a fire which warms up anyone who comes near.

Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.True...but somehow we never forget that the King is the King, whereas the pawn is a pawn. ;)

[Gevurah]

But classical music is also objectionable according to Chassidus, though not to the same degree as the former type.

and who says not to the same degree. Many issues are at hand here and listening to music not at a simcha is even a shaila...
but that issue aside...
a stam yid would say if women are not singing...
and its just classical/piano jazz..
a step up would be if the lyrics are even jewish
a step up would be the tunes not being like goyish rocknroll
but chassidish...

ah but leaving nigle aside and viewing al pi chassidus..the shoresh.....the composer/the band/ etc that it is there soul's expression that one is inbibing..then
Tchailovsky and Jim Morrison have very simi :cool: lar biographies

[noahidelaws]

BS"D from http://www.ohrtorahstone.org.il/features/music_berman.htm

This article answers the questions about classical music:

Secular Music and the Jewish Soul

by Rabbi Todd Berman

Young David, before he became king, used to play the harp to ease King Saul’s feverish melancholia. Musicians play at the arrival of Heads of State. And, we play music to ease our rush-hour burdens. Whether Beethoven’s “Fifth” or Simon and Garfunkel’s Sounds of Silence, music grips the imagination and, as the philosopher of religion Rudolph Otho points out, alters emotional states in an unparalleled manner sometimes changing how we feel, think, and even act. In a word, music sings to our very soul.

Given the power of this phenomenon, are there dangers involved in our love affair with music? Here, Hazal enlighten us with a strange story:

Acher, (literally “the other”, the nickname for Elisha ben Abuyya, the 2nd Century rabbi who became a heretic) why [did he become a heretic]? [Because,] Greek songs never left his lips. They say regarding Acher, that when he arose to leave the Beit Midrash, many heretical books fell out of his cloak. Nemos the weaver asked R. Meir, “[Does not the dye become] absorbed into all the wool which is placed in the vat?” R. Meir responded “[The dye becomes] absorbed [only] into the wool which was originally pure while still on the sheep, [however,] the wool which was not originally pure when on the sheep does not absorb the dye.” (Hagiga 16a)

The gemara relates that Elisha ben Abuyya’s continual singing of Greek song led him to stray away for Judaism. How so?

II

Rashi enigmatically explains that “he should have ceased from singing because of the destruction of the Temple as we learn from the verse ‘do not drink wine with song’ (Is. 24:9 ).”

Rabbi Shlomo Eidles, in his commentary to the Aggadot raises several difficulties with Rashi’s explanation:

(1) According to Rashi, Acher violated a general prohibition on singing in commemoration for our loss of the Beit HaMikdash; however, asks Maharsha, this is a prohibition of singing in general and not directly connected to Greek songs. Why does the Talmud specify “Greek” songs?

(2) Also, what does this prohibition have to do with heresy per se?

According to Maharsha, therefore, there must be something intrinsically heretical about the songs Acher was singing. He quotes the famous story in Baba Kama (82b) to illustrate a similar problem with “Greek Wisdom”.

Here the Talmud tells the story of the final days of the Hasmonean rule of Judea and the City of David in 63 B.C.E. The two remaining heirs to the kingdom of the Maccabies, the brothers Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, were engaged in a civil war. Hyrcanus, the older brother, held the city while the younger Aristobulus laid a bitter siege. A black market between the besieged and the outside enabled the continued function of the city and especially the Temple. Those on the inside would send out money and in exchange receive animals for the Beit HaMikdash. A crafty old man inside the city versed in “Greek Wisdom” signaled to Aristobulus’ men their great folly. As long as Hyrcanus’ men could offer korbanot, they would hold fast and the siege would continue. The following day in place of the proper animal for an offering, Aristobulus’ men loaded a pig in the basket. “When the pig arrive half way up the wall, it wedged its hooves in the stones and the earth shook...at that time they said cursed be he who raises pigs and cursed be he who teaches his son Greek Wisdom.”

Commentators explain “Greek Wisdom” in this passage in many different ways; none-the-less, Maharsha informs us that it must be something intrinsically problematic. According to Hazal, this form of knowledge is uniquely antithetical to Judaism and seductive to the degree that an elder of the community could succumb to such treachery. Greek Wisdom leads to an alienation from basic Jewish values. Here it led to the end of the sacrificial order. In 63 B.C.E. the Roman general Pompey ended the Jewish civil war by taking over Judea and ending Jewish independence.

Maharsha explains that this must be true of Greek music as well. In Hagigah, Hazal tell us that Acher was seduced by Greek song from an early age and that led to his reading, even in a place of Torah study, alien books. When he arose to leave, the damage had long been done. The dye of Torah can’t enter once seduced by Greek music and Greek learning.

What did Rashi mean?

III

An analysis of the prohibition to which Rashi refers only heightens the perplexity. Rashi alluded to the Talmudic passage relating to the prohibition of music after the destruction of the Temple. Here in Gittin 7a the Talmud states:

They sent [a query] to Mar Uqba: “How do we know that song [in the aftermath of the destruction of the Temple] is prohibited?” He etched [on a piece of parchment] writing “Rejoice not, O Israel, As other peoples exult;” (Hosea 9:1) [The Talmud asks:] Let him reply from here: “Do not drink wine with song, let the beer be bitter to its drinker.” (Is. 24:9) If [he had replied from] this verse, I would have thought that [the prohibition] applies to song with musical instruments but that [unaccompanied] vocals were permissible, the [other verse] comes to teach me that even vocals [alone are prohibited.]

The passage is a bit confusing. At first glance, the last line implies that even vocals are always prohibited. But, which verse teaches me that vocals are prohibited? And what does wine have to do with it? Another Rabbinic passage sheds light on this perplexity.

The Mishna in Sotah 48a reads: “From when the Sanhedrin was annulled, song ceased in Beit HaMishtaot [lit. drink houses, commonly refers to wedding or party feasts], as the verse says “Do not drink wine with song etc.”

Here we see that music seems to be a problem only at weddings and parties. How can we resolve this complication?

Maimonides makes sense of the matter by stating that Hazal developed a multi-tiered prohibition based on the verses from Isaiah and Hosea. He formulates the Halacha thus:

And so they legislated that one may not play a musical instrument. And on account of the destruction of the Temple, one is prohibited from rejoicing or listening to all forms of song and music making. And even vocals are prohibited in the presence of wine, as the verse reads: “Do not drink wine with song etc.” And all of Israel has become accustomed to saying words of praise and songs of thanks to G-d and similar songs in the presence of wine. (Chapter 8 of Hilchot Ta’anit Halacha 14)

Here Maimonides explains that the Rabbinic prohibition contains three elements: (1) an absolute prohibition to enjoy music with musical instruments in any setting, (2) a prohibition of a cappella limited to cases where wine is present such as at a party or wedding and (3) the prevalent custom from the Gaonim to allow music of a religious nature, even at parties or weddings.

Maimonides in a responsum quoted in Tur O.H. 560 increases the scope of the prohibition to include even unaccompanied vocals not in a party setting. The severity of this ruling does not seem popular with most observant Jews today for this ban covers almost all music not in a mitzvah environment. Indeed, this is the position, at least de jure, of non-other than HaGaon Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l. In Rav Moshe’s responsum, O.H. vol. 1 no. 166 he concludes in opposition to the prevalent custom that “certainly a ‘Ba’al Nefesh’ should act in accordance with the strict ruling of Rambam in his responsum.” He also prohibits instrumental accompaniment in almost any setting even for those who would be lenient in the matter.

Rashi, however, understands the Gemara in Gittin differently. Rashi interprets the entire question to be one of context. Rashi explains the question sent to Mar Uqba to be “to sing in a Beit Mishtaot.” That is to say a party environment. Hence, Mar Uqba’s response is affirmative: one may not play musical instruments at a party. The conclusion of the Gemara regarding vocals, therefore, refers to a party with alcohol. Rashi’s position opposes Rambam in the extreme. Whereas Rambam’s prohibition is far reaching, Rashi minimizes the scope in a comparable extreme. Rashi’s source, or at least his support, comes from the Mishna in Sotah. As we have seen, the Mishna understands the verse from Isaiah limiting song in a Beit Mishteh’. Rashi understands the whole context of the prohibition to flow out of this source. Tosafot seem to interpret Rashi this way.

They feel, however, that the issue needs broadening. In Gittin 7a Tosafot s.v. ‘Zimra’, they add to Rashi’s mild prohibition “it is fitting for those who rise and rest with music, [i.e. royalty etc. such as the exilarch in Babel, see Yerushalmi Megillah cha. 3 Mishna 2] to be strict [and refrain from doing so] since they derive excess pleasure [from the music.]”

While Rabbi Yosef Karo in Shulchan Aruk O.H. 560 rules in accordance with Maimonides, Rabbi Moshe Isserles follows the position of Rashi with the added caveat of Tosafot. It would seem that indeed this is the source for the popular custom of listening to music nowadays.

What we may conclude, however, is that Rashi never understood Hazal’s prohibition to cover singing outside of a party atmosphere. Why then did Hazal so harshly condemn Elisha Ben Abuyya? He was doing nothing wrong. According to Rashi, Acher’s habitual singing of Greek songs was in accordance with the general permissibility of singing, certainly vocals, in any alcohol free environment. Why does Rashi seem to link Acher’s life choice of abandoning Judaism to the prohibition of singing in a completely different context?

IV

A closer reading of Rashi may lead us to the answer.

Rashi’s comment in Hagigah s.v. “Greek song never ceased from his mouth:” reads “ve haya lo lehaniach bishvil chorban haBayit” -- “But he should have refrained due to the destruction of the Temple.” Indeed, Rashi does not say that Acher violated a prohibition; but rather that he “should have refrained.” Rashi is consistent with his view in Gittin. Acher was within his legal rights. But nonetheless he was mistaken. Rashi is emphasizing a profound truth. Perhaps we may learn from Hazal’s lead even when they don’t prohibit. Just because this act is permissible according to the letter of the law does not mean that it is necessarily desirable.

Rashi informs us that the prohibition stems from the destruction of the holiest site to the Jewish people. The spiritual heirs to Greek culture, the Romans, promulgated this destruction. Yet Acher seemed to take no note of this. He lived in the generation after the destruction. He may even have been a small child when last the Beit HaMikdash stood. Yet his feelings were amiss. Rashi tells us that Acher missed the boat. His singing, usually a sign of deep emotion, was alien to his people. His joys were not Jewish joys and his sorrow, clearly, was not Jewish sorrow. When surrounded by a foreign culture, one may pretend to be immune to alien thoughts. But engaging in the “other’s” cultural experiences takes a toll. In Elisha ben Abuyya’s case that toll took the form of completely alien thoughts. “They say regarding Acher, that when he arose to leave the Beit Midrash, many heretical books fell out of his cloak.” Rashi informs us that Acher had become tainted by the cultural experience of foreigners and alienated from his own. “Nemos the weaver asked R. Meir, “[Does not the dye become] absorbed into all the wool which is placed in the vat?” R. Meir responded “[The dye becomes] absorbed [only] into the wool which was originally pure while still on the sheep, [however,] the wool which was not originally pure when on the sheep does not absorb the dye.”

Rabbi Israel Salanter in his Iggeret HaMussar refers to the mind as an embattled force caught up in the stormy sea of our emotional selves. If we do not take care to protect our intellects from the emotional tempests then the battle is lost. Sometimes we need to step back and ask ourselves are we guiding our ships correctly. If the muse plays a discordant note, are we sure of the lack of impact on our minds. Music in our day presents one of these trials.

Playing to the heart and the soul, music effects our entire selves. How do these tunes affect our Jewish growth? Are our joys Jewish joys and our sorrows Jewish sorrows, or is something else mixed in? Ultimately everyone must answer the question for himself or herself. Rashi tells us that Hazal are flashing a warning signal. Perhaps it is best to think before we listen.

[RebYid]

Please explain. I don't see the connection to classical music.

[Gevurah]

Classical music isn't Jewish tunes.

See and from that post , one does not even have to be a Chabadnik to see the danger.

[Yankel Nosson]

This is actually something that even non-religious people can understand.

Many non-religious Jews argue that orchestras shouldn't play Wagner because the composer was an anti-Semite who became the favorite of the German Rasha of the following generation.

Even though Wagner's compositions are not anti-Semitic, the argument goes, they somehow reflect him and the inner ugliness that motivated his profound Jew-hatred..

[noahidelaws]

BS"D Music reveals the soul, the inner feelings of the person, and bonds its listener with the composer of that music. Simple as that.

[RebYid]

And the moker for that, from the Gemores that you brought above is.....?

[Jude]

Somebody told me she asked Rabbi Marlow a'h the following:

she's a pianist and she had a job performing as an accompanist, and there would be men in the audience

R' Marlow told her she could play but not to move around (as pianists often do while playing)
he asked her which composers' music she'd be playing
she said obscure French composers
He knew who they were and said fine.

He said anti-Semitic composers were a no-no, as well as Bach and those who composed religious music.

[Gevurah]

No proof for a heter for listening from people who do music for parnasa.

[Lubamessimaniac]

Re post 29: I think I've written a post with R' Akiva Eiger's answer in the original Jewish Music thread.

[Dr. Yisroel]

I saw this thread on my subscribed list. What ever ever happened with the non-Jewish music? Does someone owe a thanks to the dedicated people at Chabadtalk?

[freddy]

Originally posted by RebYid
And the moker for that, from the Gemores that you brought above is.....?

the mokor is in the sichos of the Frierdiker Rebbe

[RebLazer]

Which sichos? How is listening to classical music different than enjoying non-Jewish art?

[quest]

everyones so concerned about classical music but with all due respect i still dont get the whole jewish music story!! arent their more important things to worry about b4 u think of jewish music?

[Gevurah]

How is listening to classical music different than enjoying non-Jewish art?

its not......Both treife al pi chassidus

arent their more important things to worry about b4 u think of jewish music?

In once sense...no....for those who live with music around them all day (I am no longer one of those but once was).....music
enlivens the soul.......garbage in/garbage out...dulls the soul...
one thing leads to another ;) :cool: :(

[quest]

so can u not have a beautiful painting by a famous artist on you wall? thats art!! is that the sae as music????

[Dr. Yisroel]

"What comes from the heart, enters the heart." Music is the pen of the heart. The Previous Rebbe writes that one should be scrupulous with the music he/she listens too, because it has a subconcious effect upon the soul of the individual.

[Gevurah]

beautiful painting by a famous artist


As Dr. Y says....

everything around you influences your souls.....
in your house.....mikdash me'at..
the hashpa should be Elokus!!!

Tzimtzum...Gevurah at the door to constrict what comes in...the story tellers can put in the Wolf story....

[quest]

whats the wolf story?

[Jude]

how about continuing the art discussion over here:

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=&postid=19998#post19998

[Yankel Nosson]

Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

"A holy melody strengthens the forces of holiness. Impure music damages these forces and delays the coming of the Messiah. Impure music influences people to stumble and traps them in the snare of impurity. Rabbi Nachman warned that one should be very careful not to listen to this kind of music at all. The musicians who play this type of music are mainly interested in fame and money. Listening to this type of music can seriously weaken one's devotion to G-d. The music played by truly G-d-fearing musicians can inspire and strengthen one's devotion to G-d immensely. (I Lekutai Mohoran 3) "

[Yankel Nosson]

The previous Lubavitcher Rebbe says that there are several levels of music and song:

Holy music -- composed by Tzaddikim.
Good music -- composed by fine Jews
Neutral music -- which can be used either way
Empty music (shel shtus)
Tumah'dike music -- composed by people with impure intentions, energies and passions

So, though all music has spiritual sparks within it that can be channeled l'shem shomayim, there is a difference between different types of song. There is music that is more conducive to serving G-d, holier music composed by pure people, that has the power to elevate us in a pure way.

Because music is the quill of the heart and soul and has the intimate power to reach deep into a person, care must be taken which music to listen to. And this is not about how the music sounds -- whether it is light pop or heavy metal -- it is about the energy and the message invested into it by the composer. There are sublime songs composed by the classics that still carry non-sublime (impure, tumah) energy, and there are not such sublime songs composed by pure people, that carries kedusha.

This is the reason that emphasis is put on not listening to non-Jewish music, similar to non-Jewish philosophy. It has power and touches the intimate, and that's precisely why its can have such a powerful effect on us.

I must admit that this includes some songs in contemporary so-called "Jewish" music, that sometimes is just Jewish by virtue that it was sung by a Jew, but is anything but in its tone and tune. Especially strange are rock songs sung to Hebrew words and even psukim. Yet, consideration must be given also to the composer and singer or musician. In other words, it's not just the song that needs to be considered, but also the composer and singer, his/her state of mind, status, intentions etc.

So, you can have a very sublime song composed by a very non-sublime person and vice versa. Both elements affect the power of the song and its effect on us. This is also true in other areas of life, particularly ones that have power.....

An important distinction must be made: once someone has listened to various types of music, they can elevate it, just like any form of teshuvah. Which explains the fact that you mention: music for many people today served as a deep spiritual experience, to the point that for some this was the catalyst for their return to Judaism. Because music -- all forms of it -- has deep spiritual sparks, which sometimes sink into low levels of tumah, but they can be elevated through teshuvah. However, as it is with such matters, if one has the initial choice, you try to experience the pure, and not venture into the impure.

The sad fact is that much "Jewish" music today is as you say, not too ruchniusdik. Sometimes "the best non-Jewish music is so soulful and powerful that it feels more "Jewish" than what is called commonly called "Jewish" music. It often feels more penimisdic than music made by observant Jews."

But this is true in many areas of our lives today. Sometime you find that non-observant Jews or non-Jews are more pleasant than observant Jews. There are many aesthetic beauties in life that can be found more in the secular world than in the Jewish one. You go into certain Jewish homes and meet certain Jews that do not leave you with a good taste.

The answer to this is that we must distinguish between the people and the system. A Jew that is not pleasant is not living up to Torah standards. Music sung by Jews that is not reaching into the soul is not living up to the Torah standard for real music. And yes, you will often find that the spiritual power is expressed more in other mediums more than in observant Jewish ones.

We must all feel the responsibility to do something about it, rather than just behave as victims. Those of us with musical talent must use it to elevate the music to a sacred place. The same with any other artistic talent, art, photography, acting, dance etc.

So in answer to your question, "since there is so little ruchnioustically honest music made by Jews these days would I be better off rejuvenating myself with beautiful and deep music made by non-Jews?" -- this is your personal choice that you need to make. We are all imperfect and have to make such choices every day in many diverse situations. But I hope that the thoughts I shared with you can help create a standard which we can all strive for.

Sometimes the simple song of a simple Jew is better than the powerful song from an impure place. Remember, power goes both ways: it can affect us profoundly, and precisely for that reason it can damage us profoundly. All intimate experiences have that double-edged strength.

The key is knowing that our goal is not to just entertain ourselves, but to use it (ultimately) for a higher purpose, as I wrote to you in my previous e-mail.

Simon Jacobson

source: http://www.meaningfullife.com/html/themes/questions&answers/music.htm

[stwill]

I heard this first-hand from a person who asked the Rebbe in Yechidus if it is permissible to take non-Jewish tunes and put Jewish words to them. (What used to be very common in camp songs etc.)

The Rebbe's answer (approximate lashon):

Tunes that are "neutral" can be elevated to Kedushah. But tunes that were used for "Pritzus" [and the Rebbe added the English translation "indecency"] should not be used for Kedushah.

[Shlucha]

You mention camp songs...where do all these songs come from that we sing in camp? At least in day camp, we're constantly singing songs about sticking heads in skunks holes, frogs going mm-mm, catching fish alive, peanuts sitting on railroad tracks, peeling bananas, chocolate chip cookies, doing morning stretches, ducks going to the river, not to mention all the gibberish and hand motion songs, to mention a few. Now the songs are really cute, but where do they come from??

[mordechai7215]

probably goyeshe camps

[stwill]

It seems to me that these nonsense songs are in the "neutral" category.

On the other hand, using the tunes from love songs is inappropriate.

[Shlucha]

The songs are neutral or the tunes are neutral? As in, we can take the tune and make up a song about mitzvos, or we can sing those songs?

[Boredbochur]

B"H


If you see a freind listening to non-jewish music and you know he is not allowed what should I do?

[Jude]

I have a question for you, not on the topic.
If you are supposed to learn Torah day and night and do everything you can to bring Moshiach, how can you be a Bored Bochur?

[Boredbochur]

B"H



your absolutely right about that one the truth is i try to do what is right but as a normal person i slip sometimes and it takes time to get back on my feet.

[Jude]

your name reflects who you are .. how about :

NormalBochur
TryingBochur

or something more positive ... :)

[Boredbochur]

B"H

I'll think about that one.

[intodeep]

I know there is a thread already titled thsi but im not talknig about classical music or what will happen whjen you here it.
My question is what is the problem with listening to non jewish music?

[farshtuptemench]

when you listen to music it connects you with the writer of the song/tune. if the person was having bad thoughts while writing that piece of music those thoughts can affect you. most times non jewish music is written with not such nice thoughts in mind (note what is being said in the songs) and can make a person ch"v slowly go away from torah and yiddishkiet.

[Yankel Nosson]

For the answer to your question, intodeep, see Post #48 and #49 in the other non jewish music thread:

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1726&perpage=10&pagenumber=5

[Shlucha]

farshtupt, just to add to what you were saying, its not even if they were having bad thoughts then, you're connecting to the soul of the composer, and with goyishe music you for sure don't want to connect to the composer. I mean, if the content of their songs is any indication of how their mind works (and I think its EVERY indication)...

[Shlucha]

If a friend is listening to goyishe music and they are a very good friend, tell them to stop. If they are not such a good friend, but they for sure know better, tell them to stop anyway? Or ask a closer friend, mashpia, sibling, etc to talk to them? Leave a note?

[Lubamessimaniac]

Best to do it in such a way that the person won't get insulted. Use your own discretion about how you can do that, but remember that if you yell at the person or tell him he's an idiot or something like that, they'll just ignore you and maybe make it worse just in spite.

The best is to push asay toiv - try to get them into the good Jewish music! Piamenta (of course), Yitzchak Bitton, some of Yehuda Glantz's stuff, etc.

[Shlucha]

Buy them a Jewish cd as a gift. Whatever you do, don't do it with a "holier-than-thou" attitude.

[Boredbochur]

B"H


thanks everybody but i dont think this kid will listen to me Elie i think you should try thanks anyway

[Jude]

personal name in a post?!

[Boredbochur]

:B"H



sorry am i not allowed?ponder:

[Boredbochur]

B"H

i meant lubamessiamaniac.do you forgive me

[Lubamessimaniac]

NP, Bored... I'll try next time I'm home, bl"n.

[mordechai7215]

Just as a side note: is there a need to write B'H on every post? (Not trying to insult you bored, just wondering) there is the B"H on top of every page in the ChabadTalk logo.

[zaque36]

i vaguely remember a similar comment and that is the reason why the B"H was added to the page.

[Yankel Nosson]

IN-DEPTH FEATURES
Chareidi Music and Non-Music

by Rabbi Ephraim Luft
"If the Rosh Yeshiva knew where this song came from, he'd throw us out of here!" whispered one of the musicians in the middle of a wedding.

"Chillul Hashem!" shouted one of the guests, but his protest could not be heard over the loud music.

"Is this a chareidi wedding or a discotheque?" asked a number of guests.


The chareidi wedding, that was once a means to receive spiritual chizuk, has today been turned into a show to provide cheap entertainment and to advertise the latest hit songs of the chareidi pop singers. Instead of hearing warm Jewish melodies that uplift the soul, we now hear wild, noisy songs, disguised in frum clothing by using holy words from pesukim or tefillos. And of course the volume is set at an unbearable level so that the majority of the guests either are forced to stand outside or to leave the wedding with a headache.

Why do the bands insist on playing like this? Who is it that forces them to imitate the sounds of a discotheque? If most of the guests and even the baalei hasimchah suffer from this, why is it not possible to demand that they play in a respectable manner fitting for a simchah shel mitzvah?


Chassidic Rock

Just ask any non-religious guest at a wedding where all the modern "chassidic" songs come from and they will answer without hesitation -- "it's rock music!" This is music that has already corrupted two generations of young people, and is now being forced on us by unscrupulous people who have learned from the lowest of goyim the way to make lots of easy money at the expense of the souls of our children, Rachmono litzlan.

Many ignorant people say that it has always been acceptable to copy the style and even the melodies of the goyim for use in Jewish music. It is even permitted to use non- Jewish melodies in our tefillos, as has been stated in the Pri Megodim and Birchei Yosef. If so, they ask, why can we not continue this practice and use the modern style of music that the goyim listen to?

The answer is that not all music is kosher and respectable. There is music that was written for kings and nobility, and there is also music written for the lower segment of society.

In earlier times, most of the non-Jewish music was respectable and could be used for singing with holy words. Even simple peasant music was clean and fit for playing at Jewish simchas. But in modern times, with the development of recording and radio and the entertainment business that catered to the masses, a new purpose was found for music -- to arouse the yetzer hora.

It is not a coincidence that the young generation in America began to rebel and discard any ideas of morality and respectful behavior exactly at the time that rock and roll music was introduced. Therefore we must take care to avoid this type of rebellious music that promotes bad influences, and it is obviously absurd to set a rock song to words from holy sources.


What is Rock Music?

Let us hear what non-Jewish sources had to say about this music when it first appeared in the 1950s:

"The rock n' roll school in general concentrated on a minimum of melodic line and a maximum of rhythmic noise, deliberately competing with the artistic ideals of the jungle itself." (Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year, 1955, p. 470.)

"It appeals to the very base of man, brings out animalism and vulgarity." (Newsweek, 23.4.56, p.16)

"Rock and roll inflames and excites youth like jungle tom- toms." (Variety, 23.4.56, p.32)

"It will erode the entire moral structure of man . . . of spirituality in holy marriage . . . all the white man has built through his devotion to G-d." (The Southerner, March 1956, p.6)

Rock and roll "represents some kind of change in our standards. What has happened to our concepts of beauty, decency and morality?" (President Eisenhower in a public statement, 1956. Quoted in Garland Encyclopedia of World Music vol. 3, p.355)

Rock and roll "is the most brutal, ugly, desperate vicious form of expression it has been my misfortune to hear. Rock n' roll smells phony and false. It is sung, played and written for the most part by cretinous goons, and by means of its almost imbecilic reiteration, and sly, lewd -- in plain fact, dirty -- lyrics . . . it manages to be the martial music of every sideburned delinquent on the face of the earth." (Frank Sinatra at 1958 Congressional hearings, New York Times Magazine, 12.1.58, p.19)

"According to Allan Bloom (in his book The Closing of the American Mind) rock and roll is indeed no more and no less than the savage and primitive rhythm of darkest Africa." (From Present Tense: Rock and Roll and Culture, Ed. Anthony DeCurtis, p.47)

And finally in the article: "Why They Rock 'n' Roll -- And Should They?" by Gertrude Samuels, in New York Times Magazine, 12.1.58, p.19:

"What is this thing called rock 'n' roll? What is it that makes teenagers -- mostly children between the ages of 12 and 16 throw off their inhibitions as though at a revivalist meeting? What -- who -- is responsible for these sorties? AND IS THIS GENERATION OF TEENAGERS GOING TO HELL?"

Maybe we should be asking the same question.


Rock Music Conquers the World

Rock and Roll spread like a plague in a short time. The craze for the new type of music was reported worldwide. "Czechoslovakia and Poland want American jazz, and rock 'n' roll is Warsaw's favorite." (New York Times, 25.2.57)

By the mid 1950s the effects of the singers and their immoral music could be seen in the behavior of American youth. Religious groups, local governments, police authorities and white citizens councils began to denounce rock and roll, connecting it in an unholy alliance to race, immorality and delinquency.

In March 1957, fearing the effects of the "hedonistic, tribal rhythms" of rock and roll music, Chicago's Cardinal Stritch banned popular music from all Catholic-run schools. He later called a press conference to educate parents about the negative effects of rock music on their children.

Public performances by rock singers were banned in many American cities, but the young people demanded their democratic rights to behave like animals, and only countries with totalitarian governments such as Russia, Cuba, Iran, Iraq and Egypt succeeded in banning the new form of teenage rebellion.

Although the music of the Western World in earlier times included no similar type of immoral music, we do however find warnings in the writings of the ancient philosophers of Greece and China about the bad moral effects of certain types of music.

Aristotle (Politics 1339a, 15-20) said that there exist nobler strains of music and meaner ones, sensual rhythms and rational ones, discord and harmony. The base soul delights in more primitive rhythms whereas great souls delight in harmonic order and gravity of theme. Similar opinions were held by Plato, Pythagoras and Confucius.

Many laboratory tests have been made to show the influence of music on the growth of plants. Those exposed to respectable music are observed to grow faster than usual, whereas the ones exposed to rock music have their growth stunted and eventually die.

Researchers have also shown that wild rock music affects blood pressure and heartbeat, changing it somewhat to conform to the rhythm of the music itself. It is not a coincidence that many rock musicians die from heart attacks in their forties.


The Origins of Rock and Roll

Last winter, I received a visit from Mr. Philippe Ayache, a chareidi teacher of music from Strassbourg, France, who came to discuss with me all of the present day problems of the modern "chassidic" rock and roll. He asked me to print the following conversation and bring it to the attention of the rabbis:

"When I was a music student in the Conservatory in Strassbourg, I studied counterpoint and fugue under Professor Pierre Yves Meuge. He is a religious non-Jew and an expert in Baroque music.

"I once asked him whether Rock and Roll is music. `If you consider that noise is music,' replied the professor, `then rock and roll is also music!'

"I asked him why he thought so lowly of this music. He asked me, `What is rock?'

" `It is a kind of music that started thirty (today fifty) years ago,' I replied.

" `You are mistaken!' said the professor, `Rock music was born with man. It has been in existence for thousands of years! Look at the primitive people in Africa -- they are still playing rock music.'

" `I will explain to you what is `rock.' In all music there is a melody and a rhythm. In conventional music the melody is always the main factor and the rhythm is secondary to it. In rock music however, the principal force is always the rhythm, and the whole purpose of the rhythm in this music is just to waste time.'

"He continued to elaborate on this: `Why did people make such music thousands of years ago? For two reasons. First, it was made for idol worship, because music with a strong beat causes bodily expression [and makes the body overcome the mind]. The influence of this makes the listener into a completely different person. This is the music that is called today "rock"!

`The second reason was to arouse immoral behavior.' [This is the opinion of the Malbim about the intention of Yuval.]

"We therefore see," said Philippe Ayache, "that this non- Jewish professor arrived by himself at the same explanations that we received from our rabbis on the intentions of the originator of music!

"The professor continued to explain that modern rock music is just more advanced by using modern instruments such as the electric guitar, etc. But in reality it is a continuation of the primitive music that was made thousands of years ago.

"I questioned the professor's explanation from a modern song of the Beatles called `Yesterday' that is not at all indecent. He answered that this song is not a rock song since it has a delicate flowing melody and does not contain a strong beat. The music of the song is respectable. The only thing wrong with it is its words. When the tune is the dominant factor, then it is generally not rock music."

Mr. Ayache then began to speak about the pitiful state of chareidi weddings where the musicians degrade pesukim and divrei Torah when they play all the music in this style. It is without doubt a great chillul Hashem! Unfortunately, most of the public does not sense the spiritual danger that is hidden in this type of music that causes the body to overcome the mind.


The Warnings of Rabbis of Earlier Generations

We should ask: If there is such a spiritual danger in certain kinds of music, why do we not find warnings from the rabbis of previous generations?

The answer is, as was explained previously, that the problem hardly existed in European music over the past thousand years. We only find mentioned warnings against shirei agovim -- love songs, and the major problem of these songs is in the words.

This is mentioned in the Mishnah Berurah (siman 560 in the Shaar Hatzion 25 in the name of the Maamar Mordechai): "The Sheloh and other mussar seforim have already warned not to sing shirei agovim to a baby, because this puts in him a bad nature. And besides this there is a prohibition against love songs and indecent language that arouse the yetzer hora. One who guards his soul should distance himself from this and warn his household about it."

We do find in the gemora (Chagigah 15) about the effects of a Greek song on Elisha ben Avuyah, that influenced him to become an apikores.

We also find bad types of music discussed by great rabbis who lived in Arabic countries, such as the Chovos Halevovos (Shaar Haprishus ch.5): "Distance yourself from anything that may bring you to rebel against G- d and leave His mitzvos, from any kinds of songs and tunes and laughter and rejoicing that will disturb you from mitzvos and good deeds."

And Rabbi Chaim Falagi zt"l wrote the following in Kaf HaChaim 13, 6: "Would that the singers refrain from singing Kaddish and kedushoh to the tunes of the goyim in the makam, that anyone who knows them receives evil thoughts. This is despicable and cannot be accepted. Its absence is better than its presence."


Who Controls the Music at Weddings?

After we have clearly explained that rock music, also commonly referred to in frum circles as "chassidic music," is treif and that it is totally unsuitable to be heard at any Jewish wedding, we must ask: Who is it that is forcing the bands to play this type of music?

A number of modern bands were presented with this question in an interview in a certain magazine, and they all answered that it is the disc jockeys of the so-called religious radio stations who decide which songs are popular, and this is what they assume that yeshiva boys want to hear.

It is in fact a tremendous insult to the yeshiva bochurim to even claim that most of them even listen to such empty music, and certainly it is only a small number of boys who waste their time listening to these radio stations. We must also not forget that the majority of the guests at a wedding are over thirty, and most of them feel sick when they hear the latest treif rock songs made by "chassidishe" singers whose only connection to true chassidus is usually the yarmulke on their head.

In addition to the songs written by religious individuals, it should be known that recently it has become acceptable to steal the latest hit songs from the top Israeli or American rock stars and "convert" them by changing the words to make them acceptable to the religious public. Most of the people don't know the source of the songs and are fooled to think that they are from "our people." This is just another proof that there is no difference between chareidi rock and chiloni rock. The only difference is the words.

We must beware of all the singers who are sprouting today like weeds, and are trying to pass off their goyishe songs as Jewish, and are trying to fool us by their frum appearance. Some of them even learn in kollel.

But one can hear from their songs that they are very far from being bnei Torah. We must realize that holy words do not make treif music kosher, but rather the opposite -- the unclean music defiles the words.


The Committee for Jewish Music

Several months ago, I presented the above information to HaRav Nissim Karelitz and asked what should be done to improve the situation. He told me that a committee should be made to supervise the playing of music at simchas, and after taking advice from several other important rabbis, the Committee for Jewish Music was formed, consisting of a group of bnei Torah from Bnei Brak and Yerushalayim who all have experience in the field of music and understand the subject fully.

A special committee of rabbis who have an understanding of music was also made to advise the new Committee for Jewish Music, and a meeting was held in Bnei Brak on the 27th of Tammuz to make a list of guidelines regarding the music to be played at weddings. The members of the committee of rabbis are: HaRav Mordechai Gross, HaRav Shmuel Eliezer Stern, HaRav Sariel Rosenberg, HaRav Eliezer Dunner, HaRav Mass'oud Ben Shimon, and HaRav Aharon Mittelman.


The Chosson is Like a Slave

We must ask ourselves why is there such a demand specifically for this impure type of music? Is it true to say that most of the chassonim want to have a disco wedding?

The answer is no. Most bochurim do not want to hear wild music, but they are under a lot of pressure from a handful of bochurim who do not take Yiddishkeit seriously and set the style and the fashions in the yeshivos. Anyone who doesn't "keep up with the times" is mocked and looked at as not normal by these stupid boys who are themselves not normal.

We therefore find that today the chosson is no longer like a king at his wedding but like a slave to his friends who expect him to order a modern band that plays all the latest hits that their favorite radio announcers claim are worth listening to. These are the people who are in control of the bands at the weddings and who decide the popularity of each one. The fear of these boys is so great that many times even the baalei hasimchah have no power to tell the band how to play. Anyone who wants to know who these boys are who force their demands on the band and on the whole yeshiva, can see them at most weddings standing close to the band, reviewing their list of songs and making sure that nobody else comes to ask them to play something Jewish for a change.

This is the absurd situation that has been allowed to prevail. The solution is very simple. Most people cannot stand to hear all types of modern noisy music. Others do not care what they hear. The only reason that a small minority is dictating how they should play is because hardly anybody stands up to protest it.

In reality we have a serious obligation to protest, since this is a matter of Chillul Hashem. We must not leave it to a few individuals or to the roshei yeshivos (who generally come only for a short time) to try to fight the battle alone. If your ears hurt -- complain to the band! If they are playing songs that are made to be heard in a night- club -- don't be afraid to ask the baalei hasimchah to make them change to something respectable. And if the band does not even agree to listen to the people who are hiring them, make sure to give them support and don't be embarrassed to tell the band that we wouldn't think of taking them to play at our own simchas!

The Committee for Jewish Music already has a list of 28 bands who agree to play in a kosher Jewish style, and when there will be more public demand for this, many more will be asking to be included in the list.

There is one final point that has to be clarified -- the claim of the bochurim that there exists a minhag that the chosson chooses the band. I have asked many rabbis and none of them know of such a minhag. Certainly it is not a zchus for a chosson to choose a treif band that causes his parents and family to suffer at their simchah. The greatest merit for the chosson and kallah is to honor their parents and allow them also to enjoy their wedding. In this way they will also make a kiddush Hashem by showing others how a Jewish wedding is supposed to be celebrated. "The chosson should give honor to his parents and they should order [a band] according to the Torah and the mitzvah," writes HaRav Shmuel Halevi Wosner.

End of Part I. Part II includes the rules set by the rabbis and the Committee for Jewish Music, which can be reached at (972) [03] 6191973.



[i]source: http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/NCH64features.htm

[coolteen]

not everybody finds listening to non jewish music so bad, because you dont feel it doing anyting to you, and sometimes it can be better music than jewish music

[buildabridge]

ull give them that impression whichever way you say it

[iamachassid]

just because (s)he doesn't feel it doesn't mean it isn't happening and it probably will one day catch up on him.

[Jude]

I wonder if the poster who started this thread would have been bothered if the music in the car was classical music. Speaking of classical music, I read an interview with Mrs. Brotzky whose husband produced Ha'Negunim Ha'Mechuvanim of the Rebbeim - gorgeous double cassettes in the classical style.

"We received our musical foundation starting from age 6, in Russia. Here we continued our studies with the best teachers available, and later went on to the Academy of Music. As a young musical couple, we performed together at concerts and planned a great career

Mark was a very promising violinist. He won an international youth competition and we anticipated a glowing future from him. I was complimented all along and was considered a talented and very promising pianist. Nearly every summer we went abroad to study with the greatest violinists and pianists. We applied to the best schools in the world, but nothing came of it in the end. Hashem had another plan."

What I find amazing about the is that when they became frum and became acquainted with nigunim, their attitude towards classical music changed radically:

"Once, when classical music filled our entire lives, the music was of primary importance. Today, after we’ve found the real thing of value, classical music is not of value to us anymore, and has no place in our lives. But the knowledge of musical structure is not something we’re throwing out. We use these tools. You can say we elevate them to kedusha."

..the process of developing a deep understanding of what a niggun is, slowly began. We learned that a niggun has an essential value and that a niggun is different than all other music, different in essence. A Chassidic niggun is not just another song or tune. A Chassidic niggun is in the category of inner speech; a gushing forth and chayus which contains a specific content. Every niggun has its way of communicating. As we delved into niggunim, we just naturally stopped listening to classical music, thus removing it completely from our lives.

truly a "Geula" approach
they didn't "fight" their past
it wasn't a struggle to drop their plans for the future
it was a natural outcome of their newfound knowledge of Chasidus
why are those who grew up with niggunim struggling? :errm:

[Lubamessimaniac]

Coolteen, I've SEEN people start to listen to non-Jewish music, and from there it's downhill... Remember, many times te "it's not as good as non-Jewish" is just an excuse. Look around, and you'll find the good stuff - but be open-minded, and try to enjoy Jewish music, and you'll see.

[jewgal84]

Shlucha-
I noticed you posted something about singing cheers in camp etc

Beeing a camper my whole life, there ARE cheers which are inappropriate, as much as we think nothing is wrong with them, they give out the wrong impression.

This summer I was HC ( in one of the many CGI's we have, t"g) and together with the Shliach /Director, we put a list of cheers which were'nt appropriate for our campers.

You can have an amazing chassidishe atmoshphere in camp without all those cheers. Thank gd there are so many cheers, songs that you can get from sleepover camps that they compose for their bog/color war. They have so much more toichen in them.

Isnt our goal of a chabad camp to provide our kids with a chassidishe atmosphere? What good inlfuence do the blinking frogs, waddeling ducks, giant zeebras, peelin bananas provide us with? Im not saying they are bad, but do we need them?

Coolteen-
As much as some1 might think that non-jewish music does not affect them, by saying it- it already does.

Anytime someone walks into a store and you hear the non-jewish music blasting it does affect you, and it puts you in a frame of mind on what to buy or not. Certain stores will have different music on style they sell. In a more classy store you'll find classical music as to a more "off the street store" you'll find the rock n roll.

Im not saying you shouldnt go into those stores, Im pointing out that the music you listen too, jewish or non jewish does have an affect on. Just like when you listen to sad music.. it will put u in a more emotional state of mind when the loud leibedik music would put you in a dancing mode.

Why would some1 want to connect with the composer of a non jewish song (like some ppl posted that the music you listen to is connecting to your soul).

In a more general note, most non jewish songs are disgusting and low life, they all have to do with love, relations, bad influence, drugs, accidents etc.

Is that what us, Lubavitchers, have to listen too?

If your put into a situation where the music beeing played is not in your control, I agree that you should definately speak up.

People are born with intellect, they undersatnd that ppl have different standards then them. Not only will they not be dissapointed, they'd even appreciate your honesty with them.

I have been in such situations and some ppl even felt bad that I had to listen to music which I dont approve of bc I didnt speak up.

Speak up people, feel comfortable in what you believe!

Bored bochur-
Convincing others is not your job, they will learn in time. As a friend, if you know he'd appreciate your approach then it is your place to remind him that the music is not for him ( in a kind way), but if he wont listen to you, you cant help him.

Lechaim :lchaim: to all!

May the month of Kislev bring eternal joy to everyone!

[dontgive]

I know that everyone says that non-jewish music is wrong. the reason we were told is because music is the pen of the soul and you connect to the composer of the song when you listen to the music bla bla... but what i don't get is firstly you have absolutely no idea what the composer was thinking when composed the music or what his intentions are so why should that affect me? secondly who said the composer is a bad person they may be a decent moral person and may even be jewish. also most jewish music nowadays is non-jewish tunes that they change the words around so why is that any better than the other music what cuz they threw in some jewish words it makes it ok? also how do you know that the jewish composer is a good person they could be the biggest low-life on the face of this earth just because he's jewish it makes it kosher? also so what if i connect to the soul of a non-jew what's that going to do to me? i'm not going to "frai out" just because i listened to some music. some of the non-jewish lyrics are disgusting and opposite torah values but not all of it is i.e. Old McDonald. i wasn't referring to listening to kids songs i just used that as an example cuz everyone knows what Old McDonald is. also classical music that has no lyrics what's so wrong with that? also the quality of the jewish music does not compare to that of the non-jewish music. i'm not saying that that's an excuse or anything but i personally listen to music for the quality of the music but there isn't any jewish music that has the same quality as the non-jewish music. i would appreciate any responses on this subject as i have spoken to a few people about it and nobody really had any answers.

[LION]

There are numerous threads discussing the issue...

non jewish music (http://chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1726) (it gets into it a litile bit further on into the thread).

Jewish Music (http://chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228)


p.s. try doing a search before posting....

[BaisHamikdashBa]

just to add, you can tell by looking at boys in yesiva if they listen to goyishe music or not, they have a certain krirus to them...

[AskMoses]

Wow! you can look and see!!! You must be really holy!!

[zaraza]

secondly who said the composer is a bad person they may be a decent moral person and may even be jewish. also most jewish music nowadays is non-jewish tunes that they change the words around so why is that any better than the other music what cuz they threw in some jewish words it makes it ok? also how do you know that the jewish composer is a good person they could be the biggest low-life on the face of this earth just because he's jewish it makes it kosher?

just to point out that in every regular Yeshivah even Jewish music is not allowed except for Lubavitch niggunim. The only difference is that in some it is enforced and in some not.This may sound fanatical but the reason is that just because a Jewish person put Jewish words-or even from davening-to a goyishe tune dosen't make it Jewish.

Also there is one difference that a goy singing a goyishe song is sholosh klipos hatemeyos and therefore can only drag u down (as is seen clearly by anyone who starts listening) however a Yid singing a Jewish song is klipas noga so it can potentially be elevated.

[Tamar]

Okay, a few things- I find that secular music is the only music that I feel I actually enjoy. You guys should try out "Matisyahu". He's pretty cool also! I think he's chabad.
You have to admit though that some music is really inapropriate though. The cursing...

[77D]

As in many aspects of of our religion, sometimes we must forego wat we enjoy - and i think u can make this one of them. Even though everybody is trying to justify it, it is clear that ALL great chassidic masters were very much against it. One thing is for sure though, that todays "mainstream"/"pop" music is very bad for u -nothing to do with thoughts of the composer- just the words themselves are bound to provoke "bad thoughts" as many admit (in the secular world however, boy-girl relationships are the norm. and therefore does not create a stir att all over there - bec. they can all relate to those feelings neways) ok gtg