Nachas vs. Honesty?

[hishtatchus]

I've seen a common dilemma among some teenagers today: Should I be open with my parents about where I'm really at, or should I hide it from them so they will be happy?

Case in point: A Bochur who is into all sorts of unsavory activities wears "Chassidishe dress" at home so his mother will be happy with him and not suspect what he does out of the house. I know it's a good thing that he wears the suit and hat, but is it fair to his mother to let her think she can shep Nachas when in fact she should be worrying about him?

Personally, I find being blunt good for me to cultivate my honesty level, but am I cheating my parents in some way? It would actually be very easy to tell them I said the whole Tehillim even if I didn't- and it they would be thrilled.

It's not like it's even a toss-up between my benefit (staying honest) and my parents' benefit (Nachas). Maybe it is good for my parents to know they should be concerned! And then again maybe it's good for me to feel guilty lying so maybe I'll change to fit the lie?

[Yankel Nosson]

Don't lie.

[shoyn]

on your laurels

[noahidelaws]

BS"D There's a Midrash (Shaloh, I think - masbir?)somewhere that says that a parent should punish a child for lying more severely than anything else. Then, the child will never misbehave, knowing that he would not want to admit to such a thing, and on the other hand, would not want to lie. The child is then left with no choice but not to sin in the first place!

[Shlucha]

But if it is to the point of the scenario that hishtatchus mentioned in post 1, I don't think severely punishing the child for lying (if the parents find out) is going to do much good-doesn't seem like the parents have much power.

A lot of times parents are in the dark about what their children are up to, adn when somebody says "take a good look at what your child is doing" it's too late for the parents to do anything.

Also, children who are doing things that are not so good (to say the least) are usually ashamed to tell their parents, (unless they really want to be helped), and wouldn't even think of telling them. And not all purposefully deceive them, like wearing chassidishe clothes around them, but some just don't make a point of going over to them each day and telling them exactly where they were and with who. So they aren't really lying to them.

[CHdish]

frum a teens point of view..

why should you have to tell your parents EVERYTHING? if im not doing anything (realy) WRONG and i go hang out with some friends at night why shouldnt i just tell them that i went out to eat (which is partly true after all that was one of the things i did) instead of getting my parents upset and then they will nag me every time with complaints such as, you know i dont like when you hang out with those guys.. or that place realy isnt meant for CHASIDISHE buchrim you know so i dont think you should go there ect..

so do you realy think my parents have to know everything, im not saying i would lie to my parents, if they would confront me with a issue wich is bothering them i would tell them the truth (or at least i would realy try to!)

also im not going to try to say now that my parents are clue-less and dont know whatS flying in todays world.. but i realy feel that there are certain things which they just wouldnt understand me,like why i might think this way or why i might do this and this thing.. AND THATS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I HAVE A MASHPIA!

[zaque36]

The only thing I'm gonna say is good for you that you have a mashpia!

[CHdish]

thanx, i know how important it is to have a mashpia...

[hishtatchus]

Does your Mashpia know that your parents don't know? (curious, not accusing)

[CHdish]

Does your Mashpia know that your parents don't know? (curious, not accusing)


as of now im a pretty good bochur b''h, and i dont have much to hide from my parents.
i was talking about doing things that my parents know i do (like hanging out with certains friends ect) but they dont realy aprove of it, so instead of telling my parents every time i go out and getting some comment back like oh i wish you wouldnt go there, or i wish you wouldnt hang out with him, ide just skip it and tell them i went out to eat and tell them the name of some guy that they wont ask questions about..

[zaque36]

so its sorta like deceiving-half truth-white lie kinda thing

(that was a statement/question/rhetorical question)

[CHdish]

i once heard that kids act in ways that are based more on emotions then logic.. i think parents are the same way acting on emotions instead of logic (not always but it does happen)

as some1 once told me " think about it, your parents work since you were born to bring you up in a certain way and then you might start doing things which are diffrent than THAT way, its very disapointing to them, bec they love you and care for you and want you to be perfect so to speak (in their way)
now i understand parents care and love their kids, but they dont see me from the OUTSIDE VIEW they know me as parents and therefore i dont think they understand certain things like someone from the outside might (mashpia, friend ect.)

also for that reason i dont think i can always tell them everything (things that might realy disapoint them ect.) becouse i dont think they will be able to see it from my perspective, they will see it as PARENTS.

[chassidus]

There is definitely truth to what you say.

I saw a letter of the Rebbe to someone who was writing about a friend who was doing something he shouldn't. The Rebbe told him NOT to tell the parents, because their emotional involvement wouldn't be constructive.

I'm still in doubt though if it’s okay to lie, even if it’s a white one. But on the other hand Eisav did it and was rewarded for his honor of his Father (then again maybe Eisav is a bad example, and I don't know if his lying was part of it or not).

And another point is how good of a liar are you. They’re bound to get suspicious, and if they find out you were lying it may make them more upset--it's disappointing if your child lies to you. This is one of the problems with lying: you end having to make up more and more lies to cover for you first ones. It's not a pretty cycle.

[CHdish]

And another point is how good of a liar are you. They’re bound to get suspicious, and if they find out you were lying it may make them more upset--it's disappointing if your child lies to you. This is one of the problems with lying: you end having to make up more and more lies to cover for you first ones. It's not a pretty cycle.

dont you think there is a diffrence between 1. a tottal black lie 2.a white lie (sort of like only saying half the story, half lie and truth) 3. not mentioning anything altogether (they dont ask and you dont say)

i agree with you on a REAL lie that normaly it will only get worse,
(also and most of all "midbar sheker tirchak" the torah says dont lie) but a white lie or just not volunteering information sometimes it might be better of that way (for the reasons written in previous posts)

also as hishtatchus wrote And then again maybe it's good for me to feel guilty lying so maybe I'll change to fit the lie?
dont you think that can happen, i mean if you want to change and then you happen to lie about something maybe it will give you a boost and help you change..
the same is also by not volunteering info, someone might think hey the truth is i want to change, so why should i tell my parents and get them all ticked and maybe lose their trust ect. ill just give it time and imy'h hopefully some day in the near future ill change..
and then even if my parents will find out, ill just smile and say yes i know about that and im happy to tell you i have changed...

[zaque36]

me thinking there is no difference between a 'black' lie and a 'white' lie. (except da color of course :cheeky: )

[CHdish]

i meant white lie as in saying the truth (example i went out with this person) but leaving out the other half (the OTHER guy that was with us).. is that a lie?

[hishtatchus]

I think yes because you are purposely answering the question according to a different way of interpreting it. Like if my mother asks me if I said Tehillim and I say yes (well I did last month), I KNOW I'm not answering what she's asking. I'm not lying outright, because she didn't specifically say "Did you say Tehillim today?" Look at the Rashi on "Rochel Bitcha Haketana" (Bereishis 29:18)- says it much better than I can!

[walter]

Originally posted by hishtatchus
I've seen a common dilemma among some teenagers today: Should I be open with my parents about where I'm really at, or should I hide it from them so they will be happy?

Case in point: A Bochur who is into all sorts of unsavory activities wears "Chassidishe dress" at home so his mother will be happy with him and not suspect what he does out of the house. I know it's a good thing that he wears the suit and hat, but is it fair to his mother to let her think she can shep Nachas when in fact she should be worrying about him?


Perhaps the question should be, is he being fair to G-d and to the kahal? One must becareful not to bring reproach on G-d's name.

" lo tisah et-sheim- .... Elokecha l'shav ki lo ynecha .... et asher yisah et shemo l'shav."

As a Chosid he carries haShem with him where ever he goes. If he is involved "unsavory activities".., he carries [yisah] haShem in falsehood. The issue with his mother is temporary.., the issue with G-d is everlasting.

[HaMaysehHa'ikar]

I think someone might lie, because they wish they had done something and so they said they did it. A person who "says chitas every day" still "says chitas every day" even if one (or more) day they forgot. If inside you feel one way, but you just forget or accidentally dont do it its different than if your are decieving without intention to do it. Saying they did will remind them to do it. Thats klipas noga, not good or bad.

[glad2bme]

i think its healthy not to share everything with ur parents once u hit a cetian age- no im not saying u should lie to ur parents...thats the worst thing u can do...but there is no reason to hurt them...if ur realy acting up, and u have a mashpia it will propably be more constructive to hear it from ur mashpia and if ur just doin normal teenage stuff..ull come around anyways!

[noahidelaws]

Originally posted by glad2bme
if ur just doin normal teenage stuff..ull come around anyways!

BS"D The problem is that nowadays the "standards" of "normal" teenage stuff are judged according to secular culture r"l, not Torah. Furthermore, some people do not come around.

I wonder, glad2bme - imagine you are the parent (scary thought, huh), would you want to know?

[glad2bme]

im not sure if i would...i mean if my kid is sneaking off to a movie its normal kind of rebellion...he'll deceid what he wants at the right time...if its a serious thing like drugs then ya i need to know i need to help them

[noahidelaws]

BS"D The point is that no normal kid would tell his parents about either movies or drugs, for fear of 1) embarrassment and 2) punishment.

So the parents have to be sneaky in their surveillance of the child. Especially daughters. IIRC Chazal say that the posuk "veyishmerecha" (that we say in birkas Cohanim, brochos etc.) refers to daughters, for they need protection.

[glad2bme]

but being sneaky u just lose ur childs trust and thats the worst i think if ur open and honest with ur child and u dont sneak around shell/hell feel more comfortable to talk to you

[noahidelaws]

BS"D The problem is that no "normal" teenager these days is trustworthy. "Ki yetser lev ha'adam ra mi'neurav" - "for the impulse of human's heart is evil from his youth." (Bereishis 8:21)

So parents must play a dual role: they must both befriend their children, so they can influence them in a pleasant manner, but be on the lookout for signs of misbehaviour and be ready to punish if necessary.

[chassidus]

So parents must play a dual role: they must both befriend their children, so they can influence them in a pleasant manner, but be on the lookout for signs of misbehaviour and be ready to punish if necessary.
Be kind and friendly, yes; befriend, not necessarily.

A parent should try to help and steer their child in the right path, in both big and little things. If this is done sincerely--with the child's good in mind--and without anger--as is the rule for any rebuke--it will have a positive effect. Also, any rebuke should not stem from the rebuker's superiority or authority, rather, the idea itself should be explained, so that it is self-understood that it is wrong. Then, the child's conscious will do the trick. The type of explanation given must change with age, progressing from a kabalos ol answer to more sophisticated explanations, but the principle remains the same.

[glad2bme]

i agree that parents should not befriend the child after all every teenager deep down wants there parents to act like parents, but there is a big diffrence between sneaking and looking for signs, if ur child comes home one day with red eyes, disheveled hair and cant focus, u better look out for something (it might just be there tired...or not) but looking through there stuff...just to make sure there ok...is not right!

[quest]

from a teenagers point of view once again,

i am in my older teens and lately i have begun to have major doubts about judaism. the older i become the bigger they become! everything seems so untrue! sometimes i feel completely brainwashed (yeah, i know wrong thread but youll see in a sec why this should be in this thread) and i dont want to do anything! so what stops me? the thing that stops me is what will my parents and teachers and my community think of me? if i later decide this is the real thing ill never be accepted back in to the real lubuvitch life bc i once explored sthing else! so is it worse to live a life of falsehood for your family and everyone else or to cause your family and friends lots of "pain" which in the end will make your life miserable bc everything you do will be a major fight. now the truth is my parents are very open ppl but bc ive always been so perfect in their eyes they would start with me about everything while with my sibling who has always been very 'open minded' they allow him to do things id never do!! hope u understand!

[noahidelaws]

BS"D I think that deep down, and maybe not so deep down, you do believe, you do know what's right and wrong, and that this is a passing stage. This is what prevents you from acting out your desires. Also, in a way you are lucky that you are concerned "what people will say," for it saves you from much damage.

But to help overcome these challenges, it is crucial to find positive role models and avoid secular influences. Good luck!

[quest]

no offence or anything but its when i hear answers like that that i lose interest. no depth is being mentioned, no reasons why judaism is special, its become like a game in every aspect.

[glad2bme]

quest i feel for u...im a teen on her way out-to adulthood and i went through many stages in my life some that my parents knew of and some that they didnt...the feeling of not knowing is the worse...i know this because ive been there- do u like to read? if u do try reading inspirational books-not neccisarily seforim but things like rebbetzin chana's memoirs they help me stay focused...and hey do things cuz u believe in them if u dont beleive in them and ur doing them for ur parents then find reasons for them ask questions ask ask ask its the best way to learn...hey judiasm has been around for the longest of all religions its lasted through everyhting-theres gotta be something to it! ask ask questions get answers and good luck

[quest]

thanks- good 2 know someone empathises! only problem with asking is people feel threatened by your questions and make disgusting remarks in order to shut u up eg: i asked my teacher a question and she told me thats the stupidist question she ever heard!! and i was hurt bc it was a real question to me and like i discussed it with my parents bc it wasnt even a question anti anything it was just a real question and it threatened her so she screamed at me! im also on my way into adulthood as u put it and its scary bc i still dont have answers and am just not finding them through the frum societies. :errm:

[Jude]

wow, how surprising that the teacher would answer that way! Here's a possibility - maybe she felt she had to say that in front of the class so that others wouldn't be bothered by your question
Just wondering - did you ask the teacher privately or publicly? It might be an idea to ask certain things one-on-one ... The teacher won't feel put on the spot in front of the whole class.
There are lots of good books and good people out there who are willing and able to answer questions. Have you tried askmoses?

[glad2bme]

i love askmoses i go all the time for all sorts of questions, but dont give up keep asking even if teachers are sometimes...ya we dont gotta say it!

[chassidus]

General rule:

When people don't understand their beliefs in a settled way, and you challenge these beliefs, they will feel threatened. They will become defensive, irate, and irrational. This is regardless of whether these beliefs are true or not.

In order for a person to challenge their beliefs intellectually, they have to understand it well enough that they are not scared to lose them, or have understood enough other things to gain confidence that a good explanation exists.

This is part of human nature.

[quest]

ask moses is cool. i do go there sometimes but sometimes whenu doing sthing or learning something these things come up and you need to ask then and there bc they fit into the conversation but when ppl are answering you that your questuions are stupid(which wouldnt have been a question that the class wouldve started to question it just was a question that it seems there is no answer to and she couldnt say she doesnt know bc that would be too hard on her ego), then u start to wonder if there really are answers to your questions!!!!

[lambda]

Why don't you ask your questions on here?

[noahidelaws]

BS"D Yeah - that way, everyone benefits! :)

[glad2bme]

food for thought i guess it would be called...do teaches sometimes have the same questions as students?! sometimes they do i think and when a question comes up that they need an answer to as well it kinda freaks them out...

[noahidelaws]

BS"D One reason to tell the parents is that even if they can't do anything (which may well not be the case), they can still daven for their children, and tefillah is surely effective.

[quest]

i just went to a shiur and basically what i was thinking throughout the shiur and what i truly believe is this... (this is a bit off the issue being discussed but it is under the topic nachas vs honesty) basically i think if you look within the lubavitch community(i cant talk for other communities because im not within other communities but that isnt the issue) if you look within the highschools or ppl finished school and even older than that you will find that a large number of people are frum not beacause they want to be, not because they find meaning in being frum, they probably see it is a burden but they are frum bc their parents are frum and they have been braught up frum and it is very hard to get out of that environment!! and im not talking about stages of rebelion like going to a movie- thats easy, im talking about real frumkeid like kosher and shabbaos!!!i think many ppl have no passion for it because they are not taught the greatness and value of it and they are not taught that it is a priveledge- they may be told it but they are definatly not braught to believe it! and if they are being frum for their parents and their communities and not for themselves is that better than not being frum and at least believing what u doin?

[zaque36]

<<<<<and if they are being frum for their parents and their communities and not for themselves is that better than not being frum and at least believing what u doin?>>>>>>

what do YOU think?

I personally feel somewhat like the scenarios u bring.

[Jude]

1) what do you mean by not being frum and believing in that?

2) If G-d commands us to do certain things and people do them for the wrong reasons, why do you think it's better not to do them? Did G-d ever say: Do My commandments only if you have perfect intentions?! Did G-d make His commandments conditional on your attitude towards them?

[zaque36]

1) what do you mean by not being frum and believing in that?

Believing that the lifestyle that u chose for urself (not a religious one) is the right one, makes sense to you and you are satisfied with it. (I don't know if u were directing this q' to quest or not...)

[Jude]

here's an assignment for whoever chooses to accept it: question some people who left religious observance and ask them what they feel about their choice: do they feel that their chosen lifestyle is the Truth? is that why they chose it? are they satisifed with it? how do they or will they raise their children (if they have any and if they are Jewish).

it would be particularly interesting to hear the answers to these questions from young adults

[zaque36]

<<<<question some people who left religious observance and ask them what they feel about their choice>>>>>

k, im thinking of one person in particular, that I just spoke to.

<<<do they feel that their chosen lifestyle is the Truth?>>>

he feels that everyone has the right and responsibility to choose the lifestyle that makes the most sense. He respects people who are frum but doesn't think that that is the way for everyone.

<<<<is that why they chose it?>>>>

he chose to be non-religious because he doesn't (fully) believe there is a g-d, and his questions as a child/teen were not answered. He does not feel satisfied to lead his life according to something he does not understand. because his parents do it like that, is no reason for him to be the same.

<<<<are they satisifed with it?>>>>

When i asked this friend if he was really happy with his life now, he said he was. i kept asking him and then he said that he wasn't totally happy with life, but then again, who is?, he asked me. He's more satisfied now then he was before though. he thinks judaism is just a copout-an excuse, when someone dies-oh yeah, don't worry, e/t hashem does is for the best...let's be happy about it etc etc.

<<<<how do they or will they raise their children >>>>>

um, hes not planning on having any actually.


(p.s. this is totally off topic-maybe move this to another thread)

[glad2bme]

sounds like a sour apple to me
there are plenty of ppl out there whove been there done that and are happier ppl

[Yankel Nosson]

re: Post #46

Couple of insights, from a ba'al tshuva who's seen life on both sides (and isn't a sour apple! ;)):

1) The bottom line isn't simply "happiness". Ignorance is bliss, and sometimes the pursuit of happiness is really running away from responsibility.


2) Judaism as a cop-out or excuse is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say! Every Yid that went to prison for spreading Yiddishkeit testifies that such an assertion is preposterous. To be honest, a secular lifestyle is what suits a person looking for a cop-out or excuse, because it allows him/her to say "well, I have doubts about G-d," and leave it at that. It allows him/her to take the easy way in every scenario. The proof? What's harder: to become a ba'al tshuva or to walk away from Torah v'Mitzvos (ch'v'sh)? The path up is always harder than the path down. I feel for this guy's struggles, but instead of wrestling with them, he gave up. Pity.

3) Ask this fellow what he would be willing to give up for his "secular" lifestyle. Would he be willing to fight for it? To die for it? If, G-d forbid, he found himself under a Muslim administration that demanded that every citizen accept Islam or die, would he feel strongly enough to give up his life? Surely, the answer is no. Ask 100 of his friends, and you'll get the same answer. For Jews, our history speaks for itself; we don't even need to pull up examples of mesiras nefesh or al-kiddush-haShem because we all know how many hundreds of thousands if not millions of Yidden were able to cling to Torah even in the face of death, hy"d.

In other words, this fellow's life is built around an empty negativity: that no one should tell him what to do, that he shouldn't be a "hypocrite", etc. His reasoning sound fine, but he has, literally, nothing to live for, (r"l).

And one other point: there are a number of nice books that have been published: the personal stories of non-Jewish "clergymen" who, as they studied their religious teachings, began to see the inconsistencies. Eventually the wound up converting to Judaism, because they saw that it was the real Emes. In other words, the more they learned, the more they saw holes in their religions, and they wound up in Torah because it didn't have such gaps.

With Jews it's the opposite--the more a Jew learns, and internalizes, the more clear things become and the more his emunah and bitachon grow. If a Jew feels he has doubts about something, he should davka study that inyan that is troubling him. Sometimes, simply reading/hearing the words of a tzaddik as he speaks with utter confidence and clarity about the subject will dispel the doubts, even if the understanding is not forthcoming.

The best thing to say is simply: Don't give up!

[quest]

so jade, what u are saying is that its better to do it no matter what your intentions are. but take for example someone who say experiences a tragedy in their family and are turned off god and believe a truly compassionate god wouldnt do sthing like that and therefore thjis isnt the truth and it is an intellectual decision. should they carry on doing what they dont belive in bc they honestly dont believe it as being true????
your assignment would be a truly interesting one but i dont believe that those ppl would be readily wanting to answer your questions!

(((<<<<<and if they are being frum for their parents and their communities and not for themselves is that better than not being frum and at least believing what u doin?>>>>>>

what do YOU think?
I personally feel somewhat like the scenarios u bring.))))

i must say zaque36 that i also feel somewhat part of that situation.

[iamachassid]

Originally posted by glad2bme
food for thought i guess it would be called...do teaches sometimes have the same questions as students?! sometimes they do i think and when a question comes up that they need an answer to as well it kinda freaks them out...
I think the same people who had questions while they were growing up, those deep and curious enough to question, will still have and ask questions once they're grown up and moved to the other side of the teachers desk. As I get older I listen to my siblings complain about teachers and I'm usually amused because their mean, boring, crazy, etc. teacher is someone I'm friends with. They may be older but they're still people. I think the same would apply to any adult in any profession except teachers are in the position to ask and answer questions.

[unonymous]

I think that it IS BENEFICIAL to the child and the parent to hide some of things he or she is doing.

[hishtatchus]

The point of that story is not hiding what you're doing, it's that you should realize that the hypocrisy is in wearing the work clothes, not the Kapote.

[Jude]

the story is not about "work clothes" but of modern garb and Chasidic garb and the point the Rebbe was making was he thought that when the man came to him dressed in Chasidic garb that this was the "real" person, but now that he came dressed in his usual modern suit, the Rebbe was disappointed to see that the man considered his real self to be a modern Jew.

[Vayaaminu]

the story (the moshol) is about work clothes. the nimshal is about modern garb. the point we all agree on.

[unonymous]

aha...i see. Im glad we are all agreeing here. Fantastic.

[unonymous]

so...is that all? Does anyone have anything more to add?

[luba770]

I've seen a common dilemma among some teenagers today: Should I be open with my parents about where I'm really at, or should I hide it from them so they will be happy?

Case in point: A Bochur who is into all sorts of unsavory activities wears "Chassidishe dress" at home so his mother will be happy with him and not suspect what he does out of the house. I know it's a good thing that he wears the suit and hat, but is it fair to his mother to let her think she can shep Nachas when in fact she should be worrying about him?

Personally, I find being blunt good for me to cultivate my honesty level, but am I cheating my parents in some way? It would actually be very easy to tell them I said the whole Tehillim even if I didn't- and it they would be thrilled.

It's not like it's even a toss-up between my benefit (staying honest) and my parents' benefit (Nachas). Maybe it is good for my parents to know they should be concerned! And then again maybe it's good for me to feel guilty lying so maybe I'll change to fit the lie?
it's just that at home there is a different environment vehamaivin yavin....