Lubavitch and Ba'alei Teshuva

[Clip]

Everyone in Lubavitch is very into the whole "mivtzayim" thing, and being mekarev all sorts of Jews. That is a very nice thing to do. And then, everyone says that ba'alei teshuva are very special people, and they are.

But if that is the case, why is it that not many people in Lubavitch are very willing to marry someone who wasn't frum from birth?? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but it's just something I've always wondered about.

[dreamer]

i totally agree with you. if baalei teshuvos are such special people, which they most definitely are, then why do people make such a big deal about marrying them? it should be an honor.

[ChachChach]

i actually think its more of the parents not being interested. dont forget, in our world, its the parents who set up the kids, and if they arent interested in something....well...then....you can forget about it happening. :)

[Jude]

There's a very simple reason and that is, when looking for a shidduch, the more similar the backgrounds the more appropriate the shidduch, and the more likely it is that the couple will be compatible. For the same reason, many people will choose to marry someone of their own nationality, because when the culture and mentality are the same or similar, the better it is. The differences between men and women are large enough (see Chachchach's posts in Women's Roles ;) ) that the more that other things are similar, the better it is for sholom bayis.

[ChachChach]

one thing i never understood about the whole checking up on backgrounds. they say you should look at the brothers of the girl, and that's how her kids are going to turn out. it seems sort of unfair to ba'ali tshuvos. shouldnt you be happy that someone is rising above the problems they had in their family? why should the fact that the family isnt 100% haunt someone for the rest of their life?

[Jac]

Clip, you've raised an excellent point. One of these days, when I have a chance, I'm going to post a really great story about the rebbe on this topic.

Jude has a good point, though it can be stated more delicately. Chachchach, you do realize that you are implying that it is a flaw to be a baal teshuva. Look it at the other way around: perhaps it is a maale to be a baal teshuva. It can be looked at as much greater--it is these people who have had such mesiras nefesh and are truly worthy of being called lubavitcher chassidim, not just "gezhe" and those with roots way back to nevel and the like.

Simply put, as Jude says, people look for similarities in background. There are exceptions, but, generally speaking, there can be greater similarities in background when the family background is similar. Yes, I absolutely think it wrong when people go overboard and become narrow-minded. If someone is that narrow minded, then that's okay, who'd want to marry them anyway? There is no black and white and certainly no shame involved in marrying into a "baal teshuva" family. It just does usually happen that marrying "patterns" do usually work out that similar families marry into other similar families.

[Clip]

I don't think ChachChach was implying that it's a chisaron to be the family of a ba'al teshuvah; rather, it seems the opposite. Obviously, for someone to become frum in the first place puts them on a very high level. Now, if this particular person's immediate kin is still not frum, why should his or her children have to be "like her brothers" -- in this case, not frum? At least, that's the way I interpreted the statement... :)

Of course the whole "marrying pattern" makes sense. That isn't quite what I was referring to, though. I was referring to the people who look down upon ba'alei teshuvah; yet they are the very people who were mekarev them in the first place!! Not to marry someone who happens to be a ba'al teshuva because it wouldn't be a suitable match bichlal is one thing. Not to even consider it just because they're a ba'al teshuva is something else entirely.

I once asked this question of someone else, and I was told that in some instances there's a fear that perhaps the person in question, having not grown up in a frum household, might make little "errors" in Judaism here and there. If that happens, if it's such a concern... Who's to be held accountable but the person who was mekarev them in the first place?? ... And wouldn't that be you?!

[Jude]

We just had the source for checking brothers for a shidduch in Chitas. It's Rashi in parshas Va'eira 6:23. I was curious myself when I learned that Rashi, and wondered what in particular should one look for? Character and nature are what I assumed were meant, which are present whether or not the brother is frum.

[ChachChach]

to clarify my previous statement: i meant, that if you go according to that way of thinking, no one would every marry a baali tshuva. they would take one look at the siblings, say i dont want my kids to turn out like that (not that i'm saying all of them have families that are messed up, but what if it happens to be like that), and flee to the hills.

jude, you're right, but dont forget-just bc something is there in potential, doesnt mean its there in actuality:) lets assume that in this case, the person has brothers who arent at the top of the morality chain-wouldnt that make it harder for the bali tshuva to find a shidduch?

and i actually once asked a parent who was on a hunt for a shidduch about ba'ali tshuvos, and the responce i got was quite shocking. this person claimed that most ba'ali tshuvos are (quote) weird and strange and i dont want my daughter marrying one (end quote). dont look at me....this is what they said.

[Jude]

<< lets assume that in this case, the person has brothers who arent at the top of the morality chain-wouldnt that make it harder for the bali tshuva to find a shidduch?>>

as it would for somebody who's not a baal teshuva ...

remember, it's Chazal, not l'havdil, psychologists, who tell us to check the brothers of the girl ...

[Shliachwannabe]

I think that concerning this subject matter, the Rebbe took on the Achrayus of Ba'alei Teshuvos. What I mean by this - Yes, chazal gave us a "way" in which we are able to assess a girl's moral standings by looking at her brothers. It is because of this and the fact that ba'alei teshuvos are brought into the world not "Al Taharas Hakodesh" that the entire frum world are hesitant to take a baal tshuvah as a family member. Even in Lubavitch, the older generation is not comfortable with it. However, it's because of the Rebbe that changed our attitude towards Baal Tshuvos. The Rebbe through constant praise and encouragment turned our perception inside out. It's as if the Rebbe is taking achrayus on a marriage with a Baal Tshuvah. So to sum it up - True a Baal Halacha should look at a girl's brothers to be able to determine the level of frumkeit, but when it comes to Lubavitch, I feel that judging one because they are a baal Tshuvah negates everything the Rebbe stands for.

[mendelp]

I saw somewhere (don't remember where right now). some one did not want to make a shidduch b/c a member of the family went of the track. He told the rebbe an apple does not fall far from the tree. The Rebbe replied except when there is a storm. The implication being that nowdays the frumkeit of the family is not a proof of anything. BTW when it says to check the uncles it probably means to see their character. I should think that one who was not raised in a torah manner and yet has middos tovos vchulu is a positive reflection vedal.

[PeaceInIsrael]

chacha, the person who says that baale teshuvas are weird maybe is talking about specific ppl that they know, who are weird and who just HAPPEN to be a baale teshuva.
its not an equation.
its absurd.

if someone is a stable normal person before they become frum, they will be the stable and balanced once they do.
and if someone is not a stable, balanced person before they become frum, they most prob wont be after.

i tihnk the reason that some people are afraid to marry baale teshuvas is becuase they afraid of the unknown.
they dont know where they come from, if they grew up in a stable home, if there is (mental) sickness in their family etc
(this are not neccesarily criterias for marriage, just a couple or random examples)

as rediculous as this sounds when someone marries off their child, it is a frightening thing, especially when the parents know that the child is gonna go out with the person on their "ok" and indirectly they are giving their child persmission to possibly marry the person.
i am not a parent, but i can only imagine how scary it must be.

when it comes down to it, i think people are just afraid.
this "nisht bei mir" attitude is not exclusive to baale teshuvas but ppl are afraid of ppl who they know nothing about.
its not bc people are stuck up or bc they have the "better-than-though" attitude.

the shidduch system worked very well in russia and europe for one reason.
people knew each other very very well, there was notihng to hide and there was nothing that they were afriad off...
there was an unwritten, unsaid trust.

so we take this system based on trust and closeness and use it in todays world.

its scary, very scary.
"iber dem yam, shikt men pecklach"

like jude said, there are already so many differences, so many "unknowns"
can you blame ppl?

[ChachChach]

personally, i feel that if we go out to the world, and preach about love and all, we shouldnt have a double standard. this person is a part of us-we cant diffrentiate and say "oh, they're ffb, and they're bt, so lets stay away from the bt cause they're not like us." but again, i'd like to stress-from what i understood, the kids themselves dont have a problem with the marriage-its the parents who do.

[Clip]

Those parents were the children once.

[PeaceInIsrael]

what does accepting every jew have to do with choice for marriage.

we cherish every jew no matter what their backround.

you dont marry someone to make a statement about tolerance etc. you marry someone that works for you!!

i have to agree, there are people out there who are full of themselves bc of where they come from, and its not pleasant.

but on the same note, there are people who so paranoid about who they are, that its come to a point that if u say g-d forbid that your zayde was a great man and yes you actually feel lucky to have a grandfather like that. (not that it makes u better)
suddenly ur a bigot, full of urself, and gezhaaa

the beauty of lubavitch is the diversity, so many people, from so many different backrounds, why cant we all just be proud of who we are.

[Bittul]

ChachChach, preaching about love doesn't mean I have to marry that person! I wouldn't marry the woman Rabbi of the Reform Congregation, but that doesn't mean that I don't love her as a fellow Jew!

There is obviously a lot more to marriage than love. EVERY SINGLE difference between the husband and wife will cause strife that they must learn to resolve with effort and communication. The more differences there are, the more difficult it will be, and unfortuneatly at times, may end in divorce Chas Vesholem.

A Baal Teshuvah is a tremendously special person. He/She is also a very fragile person, religiously. They do not have the Backup of years of personal observance, and their families personal observance. In fact, if they ever think of their past it would only be to their detriment! So that, a person from a frume family will be able to speak of their family with pride, and from a Baal Teshuvah will not be able to do so with either their parents or their grandparents.

I am sure there are those that only care about Yichus, I do not speak of such people. I am speaking of honest people, who are looking for compatibility and the least possible friction. Fo the most part, someone from a frume family has not gone through the trials and tribulations that Baal Teshuvah, or even someone from a Baal Teshuvah family has had to go through, and will in almost all cases not understand them. Will the other person be sensitive to the not-frume relatives, to the grandparents or parents? I would say no, at least at first.

I can see why someone from a Baal Teshuvah family would run after a frume family for a Shidduch. It would provide them with a sense of "family", of belonging to the frume community. But tell me the truth, do you want to belong to the frume community based on your own merits, or based on the merits of your spouses family? I for one never even thought for a moment of a Shidduch with a frume family. You might say I "understand my place", but I say I am just realistic AND understanding.

[Jac]

Thanks, guys, you really answered well. PeaceinIsrael, you are totally correct about people even coming to the point where they have to feel "guilty" for having yichus or the like!

Bittul, one question: what you're saying, in effect, is that a bt can never truly belong. Is that right?

[Bittul]

Not at all! Does belonging mean marrying someone? Chas Vesholem! You belong to Lubavitch when you make the decision to run your life based on the Rebbe's teachings of Chassidus! Nothing less, AND nothing more!

[Jac]

You're right. ( I seem to saying this a lot lately:)--admitting defeat? Na, I prefer thinking of it as being honest and open minded.)
But the fact that people don't want to marry a bt's ch ild b/c they're possibly shakier in Yiddishkeit IS putting the BT down, don't you think? And what about the many many bt children who are very bit as strong in Yiddishkeit as the friend with deep rooted background in Lubavitch? The average BT child isn't less strong in Yiddishkeit, don't you think?

[ChachChach]

bittul, your answer sounds nice and pleasant. but i wonder how many ppl are really thinking "i want my son/daughter to marry someone who'll be able to fit in comfortably with the environment." their first reaction upon hearing a suggestion for a shidduch is "oh, a bt...umm...well...sorry...not interested." maybe later they'd sit down and make up grand excuses, but their first reaction would be one of recoil. i'm wondering about it.

i heard a nice vort about yichus. yichus is like a bunch of zeros. if you dont do anything, its worhtless. however, when you work on yourself, and really become all you can be-its like adding a one to the front of all those zeros:)

[Bittul]

I agree with you totally about the actual reaction. What I was trying to describe is some sort of unconscious reaction, what's going on in the background.

[Majorthinker]

All I have to say on this is that, in my opinion, it's a major ma'alah to be BT. It gives youa perspective that you wouldn't othrwise have, and you can be even MORE successful in kiruv because you've been there before, and you understand the people you're working with. I thank Hashem every day for making me frum, but BT.

[Earnest]

This thread seems to have developed into Lubavitch marrying into B.T. families, or B.T.'s themselves. The scariest responsibility a parent and adult child have is in choosing a spouse.

I'm a big "researcher", so I listened carefully to tapes of mashpi'im (available from tzach and shuluchims office) when they spoke about the inyun, and I also spoke to mashpi'im personally.

I learned what to look for, what to avoid, how to ask, who to ask, how to interpret the replies, and how to hear whats NOT being said.

The children don't care about the other persons background, since all the kids have been in the same class for decades, UNTIL it's the shidduch parsha, and then the kids care very much "what will my friends say, and how will my choice reflect on me and my standing in the community and within my family.
Their parents also care about that chitzoni inyan, because, human beings are social, and there is a pecking order in communities and extended families.

So, that alone, and that only, puts B.T.s, and kids from B.T. families at a disadvantage.

It's not entirely true that anash try to arrange shidduchim between young people with similar backgrounds, because (1) being raised in another continent, speaking another language fluently since early childhood (besides Yiddish- and how many families of anash insist that only Yiddish is used in their homes ?--The mentality is very, very different depending on your native country. And of course often anash don't think twice about marrying into anash from across many seas (2) The mentality, even in the U.S.A., between CH families and out-of-town American anash families are different, the kids grew up with a very different idea of "What normal means" (and going every summer to a lubavitcher camp doesn't change this)

Personally, I broke all my chitzoni-rules with shidduchim for my kids, and T.G. it worked out well. To understand the story, I'll describe my family at B.T.s from CH, with popular, well-adjusted, kids thriving in the "system'. Oh, and financially, we've been struggling, since forever.

One rule I had was, due to excessive paranoia (and also, we had rejected kids from gezhe families because, upon further examination, the kids had 'issues' we didn't want to deal with...damaged goods, as it were.)

But I overlooked that rule, when I checked out another prospect from a gezhe family for child number 2, and T.G. I squelched my cynicism, because they are both great kids and happily married.

Another rule I had was,to automatically possul any B.T., because," My child is extremely inspired, successsful and charismatic, and he/she is not stigmitized in any way." (Smug, or proud?)

When asked directly, I didn't want to seem like a bigot,even if I was one, so I insincerely replied, "Well, if a B.T. was on the level of, say, a Rabbi Bell, why THEN I would have no problem with it." Well, I wanted to marry that favorite child to someone who was a real mench, and much more learned and inspired that my other kids ( who are top-notch kids, according to today's standards)
and that child is happily married to real mench, awesomely accomplished in learning, and chassidishkeit, and a B.T. from over-seas.

Another rule I had was,like-marries-like, vis-a-vis economic background. I broke that rule because (1) who in their right mind would be eckeled by rich mechutanim...that's a wonderful ma'ala, isn't it? (2) The other child was described as an 'outstanding' chasidishe person and, (3) To my everlasting embarassment, my child specifically requested a spouse from a financially established family.

So, I disregarded a little voice that said not to set him/her up with a family who was quite far from our economic (or, lack of it) world, and BH, they are very happy.

[yaldah613]

A Baal Teshuvah is a tremendously special person. He/She is also a very fragile person, religiously. They do not have the Backup of years of personal observance, and their families personal observance. In fact, if they ever think of their past it would only be to their detriment!

I don't think that is true. i think BTs have more of an appreciation of how lucky they are to be living a frm life than from FFBs. They actually had to make the choice themselves to be frum instead of just growing up in it, and they aren't curious about what it would be like if they weren't fum like some ffbs are.

[Bittul]

They aren't mutually exclusive. They can be both appreciative of the new opportunity, and yet fragile in its observance.

An example: Someone leaves a really bad job or school for a new one. They will probably love the new environment coming from a terrible one, yet will still have the adjustment of fitting in.

[Majorthinker]

Speaking from a BT perspective, I don't think I'm any more fragile than you religiously. However, I think that bichllal, if a person has no chayus when they are frum, then they should be considered 'at risk', and supported in every way possible. Yesterday, I was with a friend, and when I mentioned that I'm BT, they said that I'm crazy, and that I'm even crazier, since I would do it again in a heartbeat. Meaning: this friend does not enjoy being frum. Hope none of u r like that.

[Bittul]

You're assuming that you know who's a BT here and who's not...

[Majorthinker]

No, I have no idea...why, do you know? Are you BT, too? Nice to meet you.

[n'eNow770]

I come from a BT home-i was like in 3rd/4th grade when we STARTED. It was my sister who was in 7th/8th , and then me, and only then our parents and my other sis...
There seems to be a diff. b/t BT families and BT ppl on their own. I can tell you that in learning, hashkafa, halacha, etc...I am on the same page as most of my classmates who are FFB... Perhaps it was b/c i was so young-but then again my sister is now married to an FFB-b"H and they are perfect for e/o. You really have to weigh each and every situation.

[Majorthinker]

Cool. I was also in 3rd grade, but the diff is, my whole family did it at the same time. B"H, I caught up pretty quickly in the learning, hashkafa, etc., and many thanks to the fact that I love reading!

[yaldah613]

sounds like we have a lot in common. for me it was very gradual- my parents switched me to a modern orthodox dayschool from public school when i was in 4th grade. then they sortof stayed there while i learned more about chabad etc. and became more chassidish. I'm still learning.

[Majorchassid]

I switched to BY in 4th grade.hey cool. I'm still learning too- learn more every day......
BTW, majorthinker=majorchassid