Cheating

[Jude]

There are categories of sins. You know, like sins of omission (not washing negel vasser :confused: or missing zeman Kerias Shema :( ), and sins that are hard to avoid (lashon hara). But how do we explain away deliberate sins like cheating on tests? Since you're protected by anonymity, can you tell us the rationale behind it, why it is that some teens have no problem boasting about doing it, and most importantly, what can be done to stop it?

[zaque36]

Many times, students cheat on tests b/c of peer pressure-if s/o asks u for an answer, its really wimpy (or mean) if you don't give it. Some people don't even see what's wrong with cheating. Others think that it's ok to cheat on a little quiz but don't worry-they would never cheat on a final or state exam. I'm curious why it is that in some schools there is simply no cheating and in others, it is accepted! There's all kind of weird things going on in a person when s/he feels that he must cheat...I pity that person...

[WanderingJew]

some schools actually have cheating epidemics...I won't go into much detail, but in my time, i didn't know a single girl in the class who never in her life participated in a cheating episode
nu nu

[Jude]

nu nu? :shocked:

[WanderingJew]

hey, u cant change the past. just the future-
suffice it to say that by the time sem rolled around we were all "cured", and my school is battling the problem...:(

[hishtatchus]

I cheated because I was afraid of failing a quiz- I thought it would harm my reputation and status in the eyes of the teacher... should have realized that morals supercede grades.

[zaque36]

hishtatchus-at least u realize that now-better late than never!

[blackbandz]

i don't know why other schools have this epidemic, and it is really hard to stop once it is widespread...in my school, they take drastic measurs against cheating that nobody even bothers thinking about it. once, about 4 years ago two girls cheated on a stupid science test, which they figured nothing would happen if someone found out because it was a wierd teacher anyway, but cheating is cheating, and they got suspended for a couple days (or a week i don't remember). anyway, they got the message across pretty strong. everyone knew why they were suspended, and realized that if you cheat that's what you deserve, there hasn't been an incident since.

[Jude]

but that's a real fear for many students
what can be done about it then and there, not down the road?

[hishtatchus]

I found that a school's seeming paranoia of cheating made it worse- it felt like "well, they expect me to cheat anyway- the challenge is just not to get caught." All of their supposed precautions to avoid it backfired. In the next school I went to, we had the honor system- and most people didn't abuse it.

[AskMoses]

Moses here feels cheating once can affect that student on how he feel about cheating. A student who cheats once and has full regret will end off better then a student who never cheated.

[zaque36]

ahem! moses hereby commands all those that have never cheated to do it just once-for their own good.

[blackbandz]

i think a practical solution is a harsh punishment such as suspension. you get the message across that there's no two ways about it. whoever is caught gets suspended, and everyone will find out about it and will maybe freak out enough to stop.

[zaque36]

if the teachers wouldn't feel intimidated at all by the students, that would also help.

[AskMoses]

Originally posted by zaque36
ahem! moses hereby commands all those that have never cheated to do it just once-for their own good.

I was pointing something out to show how you could look on the positive side. Remember Judge all Yiden favorably . :rolleyes:

[Jude]

if the teachers wouldn't feel intimidated at all by the students, that would also help.

what do you mean? in what way are they intimidated? and how does it affect cheating?

[hashliach]

Dear Moses,
There is no way to say that cheating is something good. You can ry to measure how bad it is but there is no way to say that is good. Especially in school when you are educating a child, it is impossible to sniay that it is good. The child wont learn to study, and will be learning wrong happens, and on the contrary he might feel a little bit bad in the beggining, but will get used to it and will stop feeling bad.

[AskMoses]

Yes but read my previous post, after a cheater feels regret he feels stronger about it then a student who never cheated, thus giving him the power to infuse stronger sense of how bad cheating is into others.

[zaque36]

Originally posted by Jude


what do you mean? in what way are they intimidated? and how does it affect cheating?

If a student is shown by the teacher that cheating is a definite 'no no', and will not be tolerated, at least in this class, s/he wont cheat, right? Now, if the teacher is intimidated by his class and is too frightened to punish/kick out/suspend, then the student will not fear any consequences and thus will feel freer to cheat. I remember in my own class-there were some teachers by whom the students would not even dream of cheating, but by others....

[quest]

in my school cheating is quite common place. as was mentioned before in big state exams its not so commen but in little tests for push over teachers ppl sit together discussing the tests etc... no one cares, i think thats the prob.

[AskMoses]

Very possible

[loveshabbas]

i think that IS the problem- when the teacher allows the classroom to be noisy, the students will think of the exam as one that doesn't really matter and fine to cheat. therefor, by govt exams there is less cheating -its taken more seriously!
maybe it is really fine to cheat on those silly quizes-but once you start with that- i'm afraid it may spread...

[hishtatchus]

I think the problem is deeper. Cheating should NEVER be seen as an option, regardless of the importance of the test.

I think a student either finds it outside of acceptable behavior in general (if it is not expected by Hanhala and punished severely if it occurs) or finds it something tempting ("just don't get caught", "they expect us to cheat anyway").

[zaque36]

<<<<therefor, by govt exams there is less cheating -its taken more seriously!>>>>>

unfortunately, that is not always the case.


<<<<maybe it is really fine to cheat on those silly quizes>>>

why on earth would that be permitted? cheating is cheating and thats the bottom line! is it ok to steal something that is only worth, say $3, but not something for $100???

[AskMoses]

there is one Yeshiva which is known that the principal looks to bust bochurim. I think it is focusing on the wrong thing.

[shmush]

i think cheating only happens wen the students themselves dont' care about their grades, they're just doing it to please a parent or a teacher. if a student really cared, they would take the time to study. in my class, we're all really competitive so no one would cheat or let anybody cheat off them. i'm sure it still happens, but rarely.

[hishtatchus]

I disagree. I specifically remember cheating when grades were so important to me that I couldn't stand failing. I don't think people plan to cheat, it is sort of a last minute desperate measure.

[shmush]

well, i guess it depends on each person individually but i'm just saying from my experience.
the only time i ever cheated was once wen i did not know a SINGLE thing on the test and i just needed to write down SOMETHING but i didn't care about it anyway (obviously).

[zaque36]

I agree with hishtatchus. It's when the student cares so much about their grade, that he's going to cheat. I could have my whole test filled out except for one answer, so I'll cheat to get that last answer. (sounds crazy, no?)

[Unsolicited]

I once had a Rabbi who encouraged the Bochurim to cheat, at least covertly. When someone asked him if he could cheat on the test, the Rabbi would give a humorous reply that implied that it would be no problem. I wonder how many people cheat, not so much because they feel the teacher won't care, but because grades are taken with such disregard, that it becomes one large mockery of the system.

[quest]

i still believe that people cheat bc there is pressure on them to meet a standerd that they are unable to alone. if they didnt care what mark they got theyde leave it blank. i think schools put too much pressure on students to do better than they can and to much work that they dont haveb time to learn for everything that they resort to cheating

[hishtatchus]

Quest, you don't think it's a good thing when schools have high expectations for students?

[flipflop]

no its not good when schools set the goals for the students its not fair its not giving ne one a chance. its just like seminary the way it works in my school is taht our teachers tell us that we must go to sem.....
and then when we dont get in we are devastated.
think of it,
it totaly makes sence that one of th main reasons why students cheat is because they have to reach a certain goal that either their parents or their school has set for them.....

[Yankel Nosson]

Originally posted by AskMoses
Yes but read my previous post, after a cheater feels regret he feels stronger about it then a student who never cheated, thus giving him the power to infuse stronger sense of how bad cheating is into others.
Nothing personal, but that sounds like the logic that Shabbtai Zvi and the Frankists used to validate their "yeridos." :surprise:

L'chatchila we take the King's Highway.

[shmush]

quest, u just prove my point.
people feel pressured to cheat, not about things THEY care about but about things that are imposed upon them that OTHER people care about. like i said b4, if it really is a big exam that you want to do well in, you'll work for it and other ppl wont let u cheat off them b/c it's important to them to.

[hishtatchus]

Maybe you're right that people cheat because of imposed demands, but you definitely can't say that people let others copy from their tests because they don't care! More girls (and boys) would consider it very mean to refuse to show someone their test paper. Especially if they gave a rationale like "I studied so hard for this test!"

[quest]

i think its bad when teachers set expectations which are too high for the student. stimes teachers set expectations too low so the student never reaches its potential which is also bad but thats a different topic. i think pressure is a huge thing.

[AskMoses]

Originally posted by shmush
well, i guess it depends on each person individually but i'm just saying from my experience.
the only time i ever cheated was once wen i did not know a SINGLE thing on the test and i just needed to write down SOMETHING but i didn't care about it anyway (obviously).

If you didn't care about it, why cheat at all and risk getting caught and shamed? So it show you do care!!!

[quest]

everyone cares.

[AskMoses]

Once you catch a cheater, as a teacher, what is the best thing to do? Do you punish him? Scream at him in front of the class? Talk to his parents or just deal with the child alone, knowing that he will make up himself and that it could cause damage if you bring his parents into the picture?

[rosnec]

first time cheater, speak to him or her privately.

[zaque36]

Show the class how wrong and intolerable cheating is! Give a zero, assign an assignment, deduct points from report card...be firm!

[Klotzkashe]

I cheated once and the guilt I felt when they found me out - of course it was upsetting htat i got caught - but the guilt of it was so horrible - i just felt SO dishonest.

nisht tzu narren zich - we don't need the numbers on a report card.

[quest]

doesnt it say that if u imbarress someone its like u killed them? if thats the casethen the child should be told off in private

[hishtatchus]

The downside of telling them off in private is that the rest of the class misses out on a valuable learning opportunity- the consequences of cheating.

[quest]

but rather let them miss out than cause a child embarresment! or address the topic generally to the class not using names.

[unonymous]

I know that I am currently in school and I don't think twice about taking someone elses answers. It seems like its just a stupid grade on a paper. Sometimes I think about the fact that it is an averah - but is it worth a zero just to refrain from a minor infraction???

We have been cheating since we have been having tests. Our first grade spelling test? We wrote the answers in pencil on our test. I think its a fear of bieng stupid or not good enough. You want ur teacher to say " WOW! So and so did so well on her test!" or parents too.

understand?

[zaque36]

<<<<but is it worth a zero just to refrain from a minor infraction???>>>>

minor infraction being an aveirah?
do you think that you're doing something wrong?
what happens when you get into the real world (ie. out of school) and you.....steal money cuz you want your spouse to say-woah! what a nice hubby/wife I got-look at what s/he bought for me...ok, you think that's extreme/absurd....well, what's gonna stop you then?

Cheating on a quiz is the same severe as cheating on a State Regent.

[unonymous]

I know that cheating is a sin. That keeps me (sometimes) from cheating more then i already do but i think of it as a separate thing. Never would i steal someones money or anything in like that and after school ends i dont think any of us r planning to continue this cheating, or stealing, (if u may), pattern. Its a temporary and OBVIOUSLY our last resort. But...point well taken

[gvr]

I think its a fear of bieng stupid or not good enough. You want ur teacher to say " WOW! So and so did so well on her test!" or parents too.

Anonymous, I think you hit it on the nail. The authorities (parents, teachers and other adults) acknowledge good results far more than good efforts. (As Rabbi A. Twerski says) " More emphasis has to be placed on the mishna from pirkei avos (2:21) 'Completion of the task is not within your domain, but you are not absolved from doing your share' - Our culture is result oriented, and a venture that does not produce a successful result is a seen as a failed venture.......It is much different with moral-ethical issues, where the reverse applies. Whether an act is good or bad is dependent upon the virtue and sincerity with which it is performed....
"If parents (and teachers and other authorities -gvr) truly adopt these ethical-moral guidelilnes in their own lives, and judge acts by their character rather than by their outcome, they may thereby convey to their children that it is the way the game is played, and not the winning that is of primary importance ."

btw, side point, off topic, please dont excommunicate me for inserting it in this thread (!) - I highly recommend books by Rabbi Twerski, who has a very sharp, clear outlook on life in general and in particular. No beating around the bush, just straight to the point.

[unonymous]

That's definitely my style. <<No beating around the bush, just straight to the point.>> Excellent. And, dont you worry-I would never excommunicate you. Thank you for the back up.

[Jude]

Our culture is result oriented, and a venture that does not produce a successful result is a seen as a failed venture

see thread "What Counts - Results or Effort?"

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3655

off topic: I strongly disagree with Twerski on many issues, as I've mentioned in other threads

[unonymous]

He definitely has his ma'alos.

[BrookAve]

My daughter in 10th grade has had a cheater since 6th grade sit right next to her. My daughter told me that she feels sorry for her and has given up long ago, covering her paper. The cheater will loose out of course. My daughter has pity on her. When the teacher asks for answers, the cheater scans my daughter's open notes and raises her hand and gets it right (of course!) Just wait till my daughter is out a few days. What will ms. cheater do?

[farshtuptemench]

a few days ago i went 2 manhattan w/ a friend (one who isnt so strict w/ cheating)2 take my siblings the chanukah house. on the way to train station, my friend and i were discussing wat would happen if the booth at the station was closed at it most usually is. i made mention that although we only had a $4 metro no matter wat, i would not slip my lil siblings through because i felt it was cheating.
she seemed to agree with my point saying that cheating on a test is one thing but real life is diff.i remembered what i had read on the cheating thread on this site and was curious 2 see if thats wat she really meant.
arriving at the station we found that the booth was closed and she wanted 2 take my siblings through w/ her. she kept sayin i didnt have 2 be part of it and it was allowed because they were little. doesnt it say somewhere that wat a person sees affects them more when they were younger.
i couldnt believe that she could change her mind just a block later 2 cheat. isnt cheating diff in the real world? i guess zaque was rite. i never realized the truth in the matter.

[unonymous]

I don't think that the fact that she cheated in school has anything to do with the fact that she "cheated" that money.

If she did it then she would have probobly done it anyways regardless of her test cheating history!

[shmush]

I don't think that the fact that she cheated in school has anything to do with the fact that she "cheated" that money.

In my opinion it cetainly does. THere is no such thing as being honest sometimes or even most of the time. A person is either honest or dishonest. That's not to say that a dishonest person is incapable of doing something honest.
Clearly the friend is challenged in this area and since the first 12 years of a person's life are generally spent in school, that's where it was evident until now. Now that she was out of that environment, it's just manifesting itself in a different way.

[fender]

First, even if you cheat on a test that doesn't mean that you will cheat in life. It depends how that person viewed cheating on a test to begin with.
Secondly, growing up in yeshiva, everyone cheated (i do not know of one person in my class who did not cheat). I think that the reason why cheating is so prevalent nowadays is b/c people don't take what they are learning seriously. (including the teachers).

[Jude]

everyone cheated

oh? or does it make people feel better if they think EVERYBODY'S doing it

[RebYid]

Don't you get it? There is no genaivas daas, since everyone cheats and all the teachers know they are cheating. As the Dodo so profoundly remarked: "EVERYBODY has won, and all must have
prizes."

[unonymous]

Nice job Reb Yid. Great point. And its possible that we do rationalize our behaviour by saying everybodys doin' it but so what? We do that for alot of things.

[farshtuptemench]

fender-im in a lubavitch school and NOT everybody cheats. there is that percentage (im not saying its small) that does.

[unonymous]

well lucky you.

[zaque36]

<<<The cheater will loose out of course.>>>

Both lose out. abetting a criminal, is that what it's called?

[unonymous]

Why does the cheater lose out? He/she has an A on her paper. Is that not what she wanted? She didnt lose out. (not in a spiritual sense of course!)

What I conclude with is that its all about self worth/self image/self dignity. When someone treasures thier self worth they would never cheat. There is something lacking in that persons self image.

[iamachassid]

If someone has an a on their paper or two more dollars in their pocket from dishonest means they have what they wanted but they lost out tremendously. In a world of falsehood people need to uphold their integrity and honesty, because the torah says so, because others respect and trust them and because it definitely affects their self worth/ image/ dignity.

[unonymous]

like i said!

[iamachassid]

yup! so it looks like we're in agreement here, not a bad thing. I heard a story of a woman who asked a rabbi what could she have possible done wrong in raising her son that he was now in prison. The rabbi asked her if the woman had ever told her son to lie about his age in an amusent park and the woman realized that was her mistake.

[unonymous]

Oh please!I mean that is a total exaggeration. The story is too the extreme. Thats almost ridiculus. Sorry iamachassid. That doesn't sit right.

You think that lie led him to jail eventually? I mean we all know "avera go'reres avera" but i mean...it seems alittle over the top. Thanks for the story though.

[iamachassid]

I didn't want to give my opinion because I don't like it when people say a story and then say "we can learn from this story...". It makes me feel like saying "I can learn my own lesson from this story, thank you very much!" However, you did ask so I'll give my opinion here. The rabbi wasn't saying that his being in jail was because of that one or two times he got into an amusement park for free. I think the rabbi was saying that the free trip in the amusement park, jumpiing the turnstile, lying about his age, they may all seem like insignificant little actions where the person gains but all these little dishoneties add up to an attitude of indiference to honesty. If he was encouraged to cheat to get his way it's much easier to rationalize criminal acts. This is my opinion but you're all welcome to argue it, just try to do it nicely!

[unonymous]

sorry for the strong language. I edited my response alittle bit more appropriately.

[iamachassid]

thank you! I don't think it was that one lie but the attitude that lying can be justified and can be done, even at someone else's expense.

[unonymous]

Im not quite sure what you mean by that. Care to explain? Of course I realise that when a parent advocates such questionably dishonest behavior it leaves alot of room for the child to continue this pattern of behaviour. Right? Maybe I was a bit hasty to toss the story out before I really understood what you were trying to bring out.
Point well taken.

[iamachassid]

exactly!

[unonymous]

Alittle work and we are totally getting each other. Great! So have we all come to any sort of conclusion? I think I have.

[farshtuptemench]

what is most amazing though, is even if you are sitting with a group of ppl who insist on lying/cheating their way through something and you stand up for what you know is right. i find that a most commenable act.

[lubagal]

hi, i just wanna that in my skool, its not necessarly cuz of peer pressure . its more cuz if someone near u studied really hard and by a question or something they blanked out, so they ask u. if u have a heart, u cant stand 2 see them struggling so you'll say one word and hopefully they'll remember the rest. in all cases, dictating the test to soemone who is relying you (without studying) is wrong. and teachers should definetely not give a zero for the whole test but taking off points is ok

[hishtatchus]

Why can't students ask the teacher for a hint to jog their memory?

[farshtuptemench]

good point.

[lubagal]

sometimes the teacher doesnt help or even answer questions or they can just beat around teh bush. obviously, by good and nice teachers, there is no need to cheat

[farshtuptemench]

by any good teacher there is no need to cheat. if the teacher is a very good teacher, a s/o listens in class and reviews before a test then what type of question can a person have on a test except if they cant read something or dont understand the instructions of what a part wants. what should you ask; what dyu want us to do for this question? It says in the instructions. I dont blame teachers for not accepting questions.

[iamachassid]

even by a bad teacher there is no reason to cheat. Cheating is a reflection of dishonesty and unpreparedness, regardless of the teacher or your classmates or whatever.