View Full Version : Tuition Costs
Tuition (outside of E.Y.) makes beggars out of people who are actually working at decent jobs, well ...that is until tuition costs. This is particularly problematic for those coming from free public school. There seems to me something wrong with a system which makes beggars out of all but the wealthy few.
If tuition in-town is somewhere from $4-6000 and $11,000 for out of town which includes room and board (not including airfare), anything beyond one child becomes a strain. A strain for the vast majority of the people, in which they have to bargain for lower tuition seems to me to signal that something is amiss. We have more kids than ever in Jewish schools and one would think that this should cut the costs, yet tuition costs mount and mount.
Is the amount asked for a fair one? is that really what it costs to educate kids?
RebYid
10-08-2002, 07:29 PM
<<We have more kids than ever in Jewish schools and one would think that this should cut the costs>>
I'm not sure that you always have economies of scale in education.
Imagine a small school, 15-20 kids in one class, with one teacher, learning in the teacher's basement. It would cost each parent only around $2000- $2500 each.
Big schools have requirements for admin, cleaners, maintenance etc etc.
sounds like we shouldn't have big schools then! break them up into smaller ones, if you're right about the greater costs
yeah, there's the building fund etc. etc.
just keep them in someone's basement, have 25 kids, charge $2000, and voila, the teacher makes $50,000, far more decent than many teachers make
no textbooks provided, no lunch, no air conditioning
Leayis
10-08-2002, 08:08 PM
jude,
your numbers dont add up. 25 kids paying 2000 each is 50,000. that pays the limudei kodesh teacher, how about the limudei chol teacher. unless we all follow the rebbe's advice and learn only limudei kodesh. that would make life alot easier.
RebYid
10-08-2002, 08:11 PM
Textbooks: add another $100 or $200.
Air conditioning unit: one time cost plus electricity, add another $100.
Lunch: They are your kids, you have to feed them if they go to school or not.
Still beats $11,000 !!
Leayis: If you need LC, you or your wife can teach the kids yourself, it's not that hard.
Leayis
10-08-2002, 08:20 PM
i dont need limudei chol at all. i never learned a word of it myself and my kishkes turn every time i think that my kids are learning it.
Leayis
10-08-2002, 08:21 PM
i think my wife and i would do much better spending our time doing other things then being metame our children with limudei chol. midarf es nit huben, beleive me.
RebYid
10-08-2002, 08:27 PM
So why takeh DO we have big schools?
Leayis
10-08-2002, 08:37 PM
because most parents want limudei chol and nice classrooms.
O.T. doesn't have limudei chol, and as far as nice classrooms - they simply ran out of space and had to build, hence the new classrooms are nice.
re Textbooks: forget limudei chol, and buying sefarim is a good investment
Air conditioning unit - basements are naturally cool ;)
Lunch: peanut butter sandwiches, tuna, egg salad, cream cheese ...
Leayis
10-08-2002, 09:03 PM
<they simply ran out of space and had to build, hence the new classrooms are nice.>
and hence you pay 5-6000 for tuition.
RebYid
10-08-2002, 09:15 PM
Maybe it's the nature of menhalim to want to expand THEIR school, as apposed to wanting more students learning in more efficient small schools not under their control.
nah, I don't think so
I think it's more about the vast majority of people having zero interest in opening and running a school. So more and more people apply to the existing institutions.
as far as I know, O.T.'s tuition is not 5-6000. More like 4000 I think, though if you have 3-6 kids in the (elementary) school, which is quite common, there's no way (most) people are paying 3 or 6X $4000!! Never mind high school, and beyond, and the girls ...
RebYid
10-08-2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Leayis
because most parents want limudei chol and nice classrooms.
MOST Lub parents want LC? Is that true?
Do you notice a difference between the BT parents and born Lub parents WRT LC?
my impression is it's true, though for most this translates into knowing how to read and write English and basic math, not social studies, science etc. Even of those who send to O.T. many privately have their children taught Engl.
BT parents and FFB's? I think most BT's want basic chol, though there are some idealistic ones who take the Rebbe's message about chinuch al taharas ha'kodesh to heart (for ex. those who opened Beis Chaya Mushka)
FFB's - ditto
any more on this - belongs in Secular Studies thread :)
yehonasan
10-09-2002, 08:30 AM
Tuition costs deeply disturbs me. Last year, I remember reading a letter in The Jewish Press (i hope that me mentioning this paper doesn't start a discussion of The Jewish Press) from a man who has been blessed with a good parnossoh --- $135,000/ year U.S.
But, Hashem has also blessed him with a large family -- 9 kids.
What happens to him is that the schools look at his income and demand full tuition without any breaks. He cannot pay. He has to have large enough living space for kids then you add in clothes, food, etc. He cannot pay.
I would love for someone to seriously look into the small school idea. I know in some areas in other communities, they have very small schools and are functioning.
I know someone like you describe (maybe he wrote the letter :) ) and I remember finding it astonishing how the wife would talk about not having enough money for this and that. Tuition and camp did them in ... should they too find "sponsors" , otherwise known as ask for charity? :tired:
masbir
10-09-2002, 08:58 AM
It used to be that the very wealthy supported the mosdos, but I think people are fed up with fundraising, so they squeeze out every penny from parents.
The model for cheap education system was Satmar and other Chasidm who offered cheap rates for their Chasidm and the rest was subsidized by wealthy patrons. But now it spiraled out of control.
It is interesting that the MO schools are the most expensive, and even though in other threads they are denigrated and diparaged they are willing to spend 12 thousand for a child.
You could say they have only 2 kids big deal, but still very expensive.
We look at our generation as pampered Jews, but in the History of Yidishkeit, people never payd so much for education, and if you think about the Ultra O who most of them are not doctors lawers and pay tons of money for education denying themselves all kinds of comforts. (Just read history on the sorry state of Cheders and the poverty of Melamdim amd callousness of the Kehilah, and disaffection of the parents who started sending them the secular cheaper schools, and it si obivous)
yes they have small families, plus they don't pay extra for chalav Yisrael and hundreds of sefarim and sheitels (custom or semi), and they are primarily professionals
when they pay high tuition, it's for well-equipped labs, computer rooms, libraries
and there are M.O. who struggle too, not making much of a parnasa, laid off
yehonasan
10-09-2002, 11:28 AM
Honestly, I don't know what the solution is; but it is a MAJOR problem.
I know in some areas, there is a movement to try to get people to commit a % of their will to Jewish schools.
Masbir: What did you mean by people being fed up with fundraising? DO you mean the schools do not hire good people to do fundraising OR did you mean that people are tired of giving to fundraisers?
I am curious what you mean b/c I think lack of fundraising on the professional level is forcing the schools to SQUEEZE people like me.
Schools have their few fundraisers like dinners and raffles, but that's asking the parents for more money they don't have (or asking them to ask their friends and relatives for money which means making the parents into fundraisers which few appreciate).
Other than that, most schools don't go out to the public to raise funds. I can see where outsiders will say: let the parents pay, why should we? Unless it's a school for orphans, disadvantaged kids, Russians, Iranians etc. in which case it's a "cause".
masbir
10-09-2002, 11:59 AM
I meant (as I think Jude understood) that the schools dont want to bother with fundraising, they want to make it into a regular company, providing service and getting paid. I think that the people involved dont feel that they work for a nobel cause of "Chinuch" but in the education "industry". But the truth is it is a cause even though it became so industrialized.
I think what happened from an Historical perspective, is very ironic. Jews were the only people who had educatinal instutions mandated by halacha. Other societies had their youth toiling in the fields and being illitrate. Halacha has rules where the rich have to support the poor childern they should study. Nevertheless it was always viewd as a charity cuase. When the Jewish Rich used to say. Go work.
Then with the turn of the mid 19 century and the advent of enlightment, with the western world making education a priime issue and they started madatory Public schools. The Jewish fabled education system looked decrepit and disorganized, vis avis the no free modern goverment sponsered education system and the maskilim were harping on the poor satndards of the Cheder, convincing parents to send their kids to the modern schools supported by the goverment. and in Maerica the free Public school.
Then (mostly after the war) Orthodoxy woke up, and started building proffesional mosdos competing with the amenities of the public schools, convincing the Post H. Jews that we have Mosdos and they felt that there was this major cause of perserving Judiasim. Once we succceded and created those mega mosdos, those young leaders, have no cause anymore just the business of having schools. And dont see themselves as perserving only servicing.
So, they dont care.
yehonasan
10-09-2002, 12:17 PM
That is what I thought you meant.
I think that there are wealthy Jews out there who would give $$$ if they were asked. SOme might only give if there is a new building and they can get their name on the building; but others might give just because they are being asked.
Aren't most of us "disadvantaged" when it comes to paying tuition for their children?
lachluchis
10-09-2002, 01:43 PM
I believe that the Gemara which says that the cost of education, Shabbos and Yom Tov are not part of the cheshbon is being overlooked in this discussion, and despite the high costs, I look at tuition as an investment more than anything else. Hashem will surely pay you back.
Emuna puts everything into perspective.
(Obviously, people who physically can not pay- cannot pay.
I am referring to those who can, yet feel that they would have liked their money going elsewhere.)
yehonasan
10-09-2002, 02:25 PM
Lachluchis: I would love for you to show many 20 families that can afford tuition for their 5-7 children -- that is AT LEAST $30K / year just for tuition, not to mention books, building funds, spirit program, etc.
Masbir: I think you have given a pretty accurate description.
I'm still somewhat idealistic and believe that those who go into chinuch are mostly idealistic men and women. Maybe over the years their idealism wanes, but that's how they start out. Otherwise, why go into chinuch, and I mean on any level - teacher, principal, administrator.
Fundraising is hard work, even for the pros, and extracting money for just another yeshiva or girls' school is really tough. I think that is all that motivates the administrators to turning to the parents' for the support. Often they've tried fundraising in the past without great results.
I certainly agree with the perspective that this is money wellspent (well, for the most part ...) and that you 'get it back.' I don't think any of us are disputing that. We are addressing the problem of being asked to pay amounts that are enormous even for wealthy people, and what can be done about this.
Here's a related issue: Every now and then, there are articles about how we clearly don't appeciate mechanchim enough, considering how little they are paid. How much do people think teachers should be paid? Here are some factors to consider:
If male and married, this is his parnassa and he needs to support his family on his salary.
Depending on the school, teachers and Rebbis have varying hours of work. A female teacher generally works what is called half a day (either 8:30/9-12 or 1-4) sometimes being responsible for coming earlier, being there for lunch, dismissal. A Rebbi might teach 9-1 or 2 or later.
Factor in non-classroom work time which includes: preparation, marking papers and report cards, attending teachers' meetings and PTA, speaking to parents on the phone.
Teachers work in the classroom ten months of the year, often preparing and getting some other chinuch position in the summer.
Let's say a teacher/Rebbi is required to be at school for 4 hours a day, five days a week. That's 20 hours a week. Multiply that by $25 and you get $500 a week. If she/he is paid for twelve months, that's $6000 a year solely for work done in the classroom. Many female teachers get salaries like that. I think men are paid higher wages because it is assumed that they are breadwinners and obviously, they are not going to make it on $6000 a year, not even if they're single!
Hmmm, think about it. Think about a large school and how many decent salaries need to be paid.
A class of 25 kids paying $2000 each a year, makes $50,000 which has to be divided between the two teachers and all other costs. Does it add up or not?
RebYid
10-09-2002, 06:09 PM
Um...12 months at $500 per week is $26000 NOT $6000!
<<A class of 25 kids paying $2000 each a year, makes$50,000 which has to be divided between the two teachers >>
Why divided between 2 teachers? EVEN IF you need (basic) LC, Math and English, I don't see why the LK teacher can't do that too. Half an hour of English and half an hour of Math at the end of the day is no big deal.
12 months at $500 per week is $26000 NOT $6000!
you're absolutely right of course, I multiplied 500 by 12 by mistake, instead of by 52 (months instead of weeks)
I don't see why the LC teacher can't do that too.
don't you mean LK?
to answer your question, sure they can do it too, but then the hours are much longer. It's no longer 4 hours a day for one teacher, unless parents are willing to have their kids dismissed at 1:00.
So new cheshbon: one teacher who teaches from 9-4. That's 7 hours in school. 7x25=175 a day. Times 5 days a week (five days for boys)
is 175x5=875 a week
plus Fri. another 3 hours x25=75
875 plus 75 =950 a week
times 52 = 49,400
he still has the outside of school work
can't take another job to supplement his income
and no way can make it on that salary if he has more than a few kids
why should mechanchim be reduced to handouts like food stamps and medicaid (medicare?)?
9-4 and no limudei chol is what O.T. has
but then it's 9-5 for 6th and 7th
and 9-6 for 8th
even more hours
are the teachers getting $50,000? I have no idea
and what about seniority and promotions? should somebody in their first year make the same as somebody in his tenth year of teaching? I think not!
RebYid
10-09-2002, 07:04 PM
$50K is not enough to live on a year? There is still tutoring at night, vacations, and the wife can work too.
I know many people living on that type of wage right now. In any profession, you cannot charge more for your services than the market will bear. If the parents are not earning mega-bucks, and we have lots of kids, that's just how it's going to be.
shoyn
10-09-2002, 09:03 PM
I think that a good marketing tool for fundraising for shcools is to say that you are collecting for scholarships for needs families, that way the donor feels that he isn't just giving money to the school but directly to a poor person.
There is still tutoring at night, vacations, and the wife can work too.
if he is only teaching 9-1, tutoring or other things are fine, otherwise - you run into dangerous territory when moonlighting, and let's not forget all the outside of school responsibilities he has for school
wife working? that's a whole other story
maybe she should be at home raising her kids if she's blessed to have them and there are still young ones at home who belong with Mommy, for who else will be raising them instead of her?
on the other hand, maybe she's free to work outside the home
most women are not
I know many people living on that type of wage right now
it depends on where you live and the cost of living in your area; it can be fine or really not fine at all, also depending if you have 2, 4 or 10 kids. With 10 kids, it's back to handouts. After all, $135,000 and 9 kids is really difficult when you pay in full.
that's just how it's going to be.
well, maybe the market needs re-educating as to priorities in Jewish life. If teachers are underpaid and made to be shnorrers, then maybe that shows we don't respect those who teach our children Torah. Then maybe we shouldn't be surprised at how the kids turn out.
RebYid
10-09-2002, 09:55 PM
Re-educating the market is not going to help. I think EVERY good teacher should earn $200k per year, and why not, it's one of the most important jobs in the world.
But if I only earn $75k per year, I can't pay $10k per year for my 8 kids, no matter what my priorities are.
What I meant was, people who have $$ for other things like huge bar mitzvas and weddings, but somehow need to bargain their tuition bills down
I spoke to someone in Israel who said that cheder for the boys costs about $60 a month. She sends to a more expensive one at $110 a month. It costs that much (more than the girls) because they get far less govt. money in order not to have to follow govt. guidelines for curriculum. Though I still don't see how the staff manages, but apparently the system works.
She pays what comes out to under $100 a year for her girls. How is it that low? Because the government pays 1/3, tuition covers another 1/3, and donors pay the remaining 1/3.
In other words, what we need in the U.S. is school vouchers. It is truly unfair that we pay double, once in taxes (for public schools) and then again for private schools. This seems to be the only practical solution.
Just by the way, what we call "half a day" in the U.S. (like on Fridays) is standard for the girls' schools. Their day begins at 8:30 and ends at 12,1. This includes limudei kodesh of course, and some limudei chol too. I'm sure the schedule and subjects vary though, from school to school.
hishtatchus
10-24-2002, 01:01 AM
It also helps that in Israel, Limudei Kodesh is without a language barrier, so time can be spent on the actual material, and not the "taitchen." (translations)
Our days may be long- but we need that much more time in the US!
I believe that the Gemara which says that the cost of education, Shabbos and Yom Tov are not part of the cheshbon is being overlooked in this discussion
the Gemara in Beitza 16A says: A person's entire income [for the year] is fixed for him in the ten days from Rosh Hashana to Yom Kippur. If he spends too much early in the early, he will be poor at the end of the year. The exceptions are the expenses he incurs for Shabbos and Yom Tov and for tuition for his children's Torah education. If he spends less for any of these, he is given less, and if he spends more, he is given more.
lubbachur19
06-05-2003, 10:26 AM
I just wanted to raise a very important issue here. I'm talking about the fact that Lubavitcher yeshivos around the world and particularly in America charge extorbitant amounts of money and do not make exceptions to those who can"t afford it. In misnagdic Yeshivos this does not happen. I was also told thateven in Lubavitch it is a new thing. How can the hanhalas of the Yeshivos justify this great injustice.
miturgiman
06-05-2003, 11:05 AM
Misnagdic yeshivos have access to financial resources that Lubavitcher yeshivos do not.
If they would not charge what they do, then they would have to shut down, c"v.
rebayzl
06-05-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by miturgiman
Misnagdic yeshivos have access to financial resources that Lubavitcher yeshivos do not.
What are those resources?!
stamayid
06-05-2003, 11:45 AM
The misnagdic yeshiva my son attends severely cut back on discounts this year, no more than $2,000 per family. They also have been known not to send students to the office if their parents are behind in tuition. (Parents complain but rabbeim are glad to get paid on time)
Everyone is feeling the money crunch.
EtzChaim613
06-05-2003, 11:52 AM
From what I know of the yeshiva world and the Chabad world, I disagree with the premise that misnagdic yeshivos have access to resources that Chabad does not have. It seems to me the exact opposite. Chabad has resources to funds that the misnagdic yeshivos do not have access to.
Chabad excels in fundraising. In California Chabad institutions are sprouting up all over the place. They build large buildings and many institutions, including schools, in the most expensive areas despite have less than half the attendance (and therefore tuition) of the non-Chabad yeshivas. In fact, a massive Bais Chaya Mushka is being erected as we speak that is larger than any other building in the area.
Certain Rabbis have been able to garner the support of the Hollywood crowd and raise massive amounts of money.
I don't know the situation in every Chabad yeshiva, but I beg to differ with the premise. Misnagdic yeshivas do not tend to have large amounts of support from outside their own ranks. Orthodox schools from the most Modern to the most Yeshivish tend to rely on funds from the Frummer Velt. The Federations do give support to many Torah U'Mesora Day Schools, however accredited Chabad schools are eligible for the same support.
Gevurah
06-05-2003, 01:19 PM
Ah...franchises
Bittul
06-05-2003, 03:29 PM
Etz, that's a very limited view you have of Lubavitch. The support that Lubavitch will receive from "moneyed" people, who are mainly non-frum or even opposed, is due to their efforts that are not identifiable as Chabad. Anyone can teach Alef-Bais, anyone can run Holiday programs, anyone can start a shul for beginners. The methodology is unique, the concept is not.
Fundraising for a Yeshivah on the other hand is shnorring. Almost no one will give for an exclusively frum Yeshivah unless they are frum themselves.
lub, sorry to say this, but you can always take the age old path: teach your own kid. Saves a lot of money on tuition. If you want someone else to give of their time, you need to pay them. It may mean working longer hours, scrimping on other family needs, but the teacher needs to pay the mortgage as much as you do. 100 years ago a melamed could teach for free. That's impossible now.
It's not a new thing in Lubavitch, or elsewhere. There is inflation, so prices go up, but reasonably so. It's just that to put 3 kids into school you need to be making $60,000+ either 20 years ago or now.
lubbachur19
06-09-2003, 04:06 PM
I'm not sure if I made myself clear , but if I didn't I just want to clarify that what I was talking about was Yeshiva Gedolas and mesivtas.
Also while I can understand Yeshivas not making exception to those who have less money, I cannot understand the fact that they charge totally exorbitant prices in the first place.
tamim770
06-09-2003, 04:11 PM
"miturgomon" You say that if the Lubavitcher yeshivos would not charge what they did they would have to close down.
I find that hard to believe. I know what lubbachur19 is talking about, he's talking about Yeshivas charging $10,000+!
Are you trying to tell me that if yeshivas didnot charge in the excess of $10,000 they would have to close down?
RebYid
06-09-2003, 05:26 PM
The problem is that those who set the fees have no idea how hard it is for a regular (non klei kodesh) family to come up with $50k+ dollars for their children's chinuch.
tamim770
06-09-2003, 05:47 PM
So what do you think can be done about it?
bochur770
06-09-2003, 06:05 PM
this is something on the lips of many paents of lubavitch for a long time now. bittul, i understand ur argument that one must pay for education, but if parents do not have money there is no reason for a child to suffer.
lets go through some yeshivos:
OT-15,000 dollars, when they bring it down to 10 its a big favour! in OT there r 280 bochurim, if only %10 of them r paying full, we have: $450,000, not bad for a start, if a further %10 are paying 10,000 we have a further 280,000. lets say 100 are paying 6,000 we have a further 600,000. total all that we have around 1.4 million dollars! not bad, someone in CH is really making money these days!
Morristown- 12,000 officially, but herson is usually very considerate, since he doesnt need anyone's money, so he charges most parents around 6 or 7 thousand.
Montreal-10,000, with all of the politics there, the yeshiva is very independent but without money, somehow kaplan seems to handle it all, he has hard backing from a few ppl.
Miami-12,000, its that or nothing.
LA- where there is tons of money, the tuition is over 10,000.
In israel, the average for a US bochur is 3,000.
london and brunoy are also over 10,000.
many good bochurim are not accepted into yeshivos because of lack of money and very sadly many bad bochurim make it in because of the money.
take the accounting i made with OT, make it with every yeshiva, then some mosdos are doing very good.
but this is a new thing, before gimmel toammuz, the Rebbe made sure every bochur went where he wanted or where the Rebbe wanted him to go to. tuition was never a disscussion, that i swhy the Rashag was fundrasing a budget of 10,000 a day, and that is why yeshivos hire head of mosdos and fundraisers. today many fundraisers seem to forget their job and instead run after parents.
dont take me wrong, every parent must pay towards their son's education, but not the massive amounts requested from them, even before marying off children, parent are already in debt from the education.
and i hear that in seminaries its much worse not to mention camp.............
Torah613
06-09-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by RebYid
The problem is that those who set the fees have no idea how hard it is for a regular (non klei kodesh) family to come up with $50k+ dollars for their children's chinuch. No, some of those that set the fees know how hard it is, but charge it anyway as they feel (rightly or wrongly - that is another discussion) that that is the only way to cover the budget.
But why single out "non klei kodesh"? Do "KK" have more money? :confused:
RebYid
06-09-2003, 10:22 PM
The reason I single out regular non KK is simple. It's these people that do not have the ability to fundraise for themselves, and similarly find it harder to get discounts from mosdes.
I was told by the menahel of a certain mosed that he knew of shluchim that pay around $50,000 for their children’s chinuch. Now show me how a BB can do that on a salary of even $80,000. It's impossible.
I have nothing against shluchim C"V (in fact, some of my best friends are shluchim ;) ) but I think that the middle class BB'im are being forgotten by those who run Lub, namely the g'virim and the shluchim. But that’s a topic for another thread.
Torah613
06-09-2003, 10:52 PM
My friend (don't worry - just a figure of speech;)), I think you are mistaken. 1) KK are very often (usually?) not fundraisers. 2) In todays climate, KK are also not getting discounts - just ask around. 3) Therefore, the KK are in the same pit (and very often deeper) as everyone else.
How they manage? Ever heard of credit cards?
whynot
06-09-2003, 10:57 PM
jumping in middle of no where.
the shluchim are making a body that will deal specially with tuition fees- i hope it works
RebYid
06-09-2003, 11:06 PM
Lets say you have only 3 children in Yeshiva / Sem at a time for 6 years, at $13k each, thats $234k. You must have a good credit card ;)
Torah613
06-09-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by RebYid
Lets say you have only 3 children in Yeshiva / Sem at a time for 6 years, at $13k each, thats $234k. You must have a good credit card ;) Or a lot of them...
whynot
06-09-2003, 11:10 PM
most parents don't pay 13K a child.
RebYid
06-09-2003, 11:20 PM
Nu deduct $50k, it makes no difference.
shoyn
06-10-2003, 12:03 AM
while its making no difference pass it this way
shmush
06-10-2003, 05:56 AM
its even worse for ppl who live in countries with a dollar that's nearly half the US one!
Gevurah
06-10-2003, 01:25 PM
offering vacations for the Yeshiva administration at their mossad in exchange for a discount....
tamim770
06-12-2003, 04:28 PM
I wonder if any of the people who set those fees are reading this.
If they are do they have anything to answer ?
It would seem that the general consensus is that people are being overcharged.
bochur770
06-12-2003, 04:39 PM
no tamim they are not reading this, and if they were there answer would simply be: if you dont like it dont learn by us!
no one is running yeshivos today the way the rebbe wants it to be run, just one example: the Rebbe said that a bochur should be kicked out, ONLY if he has influence on other bochurim!
another example is this: fees!
tamim770
06-12-2003, 05:00 PM
Well whats the eitzah?
I just hope "whynot" is right that the shluchim are doing something about it and something will change .
bochur770
06-12-2003, 07:13 PM
the eitzah is that a few shluchim and others who are sick of this should get togetehr and open a new yeshiva that will NOT charge mad amounts, and there will be people dedicated to fundrasing and supporting the teachers w/o killling parents. or even take over a yeshiva like lubavicth yeshiva, hence not having to buy any buildings etc, but rather invest money to rebuild and to add staff.
i tell u on ething: if someone does that, OT and places like that will have a BIG wake up call!
HoravDave
06-13-2003, 01:48 AM
In motown I know of at least 1 bchur that his parents are not paying a thing.
My parents told me that since we moved to Detroit the tuition - even for the Cheder went up every single year kimaat.
quest
06-13-2003, 06:13 AM
if u thing yeshivah costs a lot look at seminary and they really dont give discounts. its so wrong that everything revolvs around money and not torah
HoravDave
06-13-2003, 04:09 PM
Is this thread gonna go anywhere or are we just gonna gripe...
Torah613
06-13-2003, 04:11 PM
Like any other thread.
BrookAve
06-13-2003, 07:50 PM
HaRovDave: I am thankful that I can pay what they ask for. Why should we gripe, we have thank G-D healthy children who can attend and learn. Everyone has to make a parnassa, even the Melamdim. Would everyone on this thread rather Not have children in a Yeshiva?
mordechai7215
06-13-2003, 09:07 PM
I don't understand, I realize theprice for tuition is expensave, but it's also expensive to run ayeshivah, especially if many people aren't paying full tuition.
no one is running yeshivos today the way the rebbe wants it to be run
I find that far from fair. I know of several yeshivas which give a major disscounts to buchcerim.
quest
06-15-2003, 04:13 PM
are any of these threads gonna go anywhere or are we just gonna gripe?
HoravDave
06-15-2003, 05:25 PM
Thats what I said...
quest
06-16-2003, 06:37 AM
i thaught u were implying this one only- i mean this whole websight- do u believe athing changes bc of it?
HoravDave
06-16-2003, 12:56 PM
In some things, when it is idividuals communicating with other individuals then yes.
However with regards to this case, as far as I know we dont have any posters that actualley have a say in the matter with regards to how much must be paid...
quest
06-17-2003, 09:18 AM
so let the conversation end here!!!
HoravDave
06-17-2003, 06:22 PM
Agreed
shoyn
06-17-2003, 07:28 PM
perhpas instead of yeshivas charging officially the one fee for all, which some pay in full , some part, some not at all , there needs to be from the outset a sliding fee that is means tested.
anyone seeking a reduced fee would substantiate their claims with tax returns (though in the frummer world this would hardly reflect one's earnings but leave that for another thread) or any other kind of proof.
the rich may pay substantially more than they currently do, but they can afford to.
quest
06-18-2003, 05:22 AM
i c the conversations started again! shoyn youde make a good communist. each according to his needs to each according to his ability.
Torah613
06-18-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by shoyn
perhpas instead of yeshivas charging officially the one fee for all, which some pay in full , some part, some not at all , there needs to be from the outset a sliding fee that is means tested.
anyone seeking a reduced fee would substantiate their claims with tax returns (though in the frummer world this would hardly reflect one's earnings but leave that for another thread) or any other kind of proof.
the rich may pay substantially more than they currently do, but they can afford to. Many mosdos already ask for a tax return - and still ask those prices.
What do you consider "rich"?
Gevurah
06-18-2003, 09:13 AM
tax returns (though in the frummer world this would hardly reflect one's earnings but leave that for another thread)
SO who asks? and how can they be so naive?
Gevurah
06-18-2003, 09:13 AM
I have neighbors who get major discounts as their parents pay their mortgage etc and they have little income to show but are not starving.
shoyn
06-18-2003, 07:00 PM
<shoyn youde make a good communist. each according to his needs to each according to his ability.>
words of substance would serve your case better.
<What do you consider "rich"?>
Just as an example someone who is earning 500,000 a year can afford to pay 20,000 for his child's tuition. again this is just an example.
<Many mosdos already ask for a tax return - and still ask those prices>
if the rich paid more than what they are currently, those with lesser means would be able to receive greater reductions.
Torah613
06-18-2003, 07:28 PM
Very few people earn half a million $ a year - so how would this solve the problem?
shoyn
06-18-2003, 07:36 PM
as i said it was an example
to do this professionally you would need to involve professionals who deal with budget making, financial planners etc to construct the formula, how much a person needs for living expenses leisure etc
based on that you would calculate how much tuition this person can afford
Moishe
06-18-2003, 07:50 PM
I completely disagree with you about "rich" people paying more. I think that the actual cost to the mosed per student should be calculated, and no-one "forced" to pay more than that amount.
The only question is how to raise the difference between this figure and what parents can actually afford.
Who is anyone to decide who is rich anyway?
shoyn
06-18-2003, 08:15 PM
<I completely disagree with you about "rich" people paying more. I think that the actual cost to the mosed per student should be calculated, and no-one "forced" to pay more than that amount.>
perhaps taxes should work like that too, the goverment works out the costs of providing services etc and each person pays the same amount irrespective of earnings.
<The only question is how to raise the difference between this figure and what parents can actually afford>
so what do you suggest?
<Who is anyone to decide who is rich anyway?>
read my previous posts
Moishe
06-18-2003, 08:48 PM
I suggest that all Yeshiva Gedolas be moved to Eretz Yisroel, where the cost base is much lower.
shoyn
06-18-2003, 08:54 PM
ahh finally a practical suggestion!
on a more serious note with the israeli government reducing funding for yeshivas etc, it will be interesting to see what their rates for chutznikim will be
Tuition, registration fees etc.. cause my wife & I so much stress on top of all of the other costs of being frum. I am ready to give up. I hate feeling like a shnorer & asking for discounts etc... With all of the post dated checks for banquet fees, raffle etc.. I constantly find myself in a hole.
Moishe
07-02-2003, 05:51 PM
Don't feel bad about asking for discounts because even people on $150k a year cannot afford full fees if they have more than a few children.
Besides, the "full fees" are in many cases more than the cost to the mosed to educate the child.
Gyf: I sympathize. Truly.
Don't give up. (I'm afraid to ask what that entails).
Think of alternatives. Is there something you can offer the school in lieu of cash? Any services?
Are you happy with the schools at least? It would be terrible if you were paying all that $$ if you weren't. Is it possible to start a new, small school with no frills. Just hiring a melamed to teach a small group in someone's house?
Can you think of ways of the school cutting down on its costs, and then lowering your tuition. What if all parents said don't use air conditioners. Our kids will sweat and survive. What about no lunches. Kids bring food from home. Etc.
Someone confided that he couldn't afford the ten thousand dollars to send his daughter to seminary, but he knew that if he didn't send her, she'd remember that forever, and so he "raised the money" i.e. debased himself by asking friends etc. for $ :tired:
stamayid
07-10-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Moishe
I suggest that all Yeshiva Gedolas be moved to Eretz Yisroel, where the cost base is much lower.
Not so clear that it will be for much longer, with budget cuts etc.
EtzChaim613
08-05-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Jude
Someone confided that he couldn't afford the ten thousand dollars to send his daughter to seminary, but he knew that if he didn't send her, she'd remember that forever, and so he "raised the money" i.e. debased himself by asking friends etc. for $ :tired:
Maybe I am too much of a hard liner, but when did it become such a problem to say to one's son or daughter. . . "although we wish we could afford to pay for [fill in the blank], we cannot afford to do so and therefore we will have to come up with an alternate plan to achieve said goad."
I don't see why a son/daughter cannot be creative and raise a certain amount of money themselves to go to seminary by babysitting, cleaning homes, putting up sukkot, mowing lawns, working in an office, shlepping, etc.
I sometimes wonder if by never sharing with a child the message of not being able to afford something and turning around to borrow funds if we instead send a message that a) it is OK to live beyond one's means, b) you should have what everyone has, c) what everyone does you must do too, d) the parents are always responsible for the children's desires.
What do other posters think?
[Postnote: I am only speaking of the "extras" in this post. . . I am not speaking about tuition for elementary through high school. . . I am speaking about post-high school, material goods, camp, etc. . .although I realize these are integral parts of chinuch in many ways too]
some comments:
1) it could very well be that the daughter knows that the family is not well off
2) it could very well be that the girl earned some money as you suggested, but as a full-time high school student could not get anywhere near the $10,000 needed with very part-time, minimum wage work.
the question is - why couldn't he send her to Beis Rivka seminary? No air fare (he lives in Cr. Hts.), no dorming expenses, lower tuition
and the answer is because after 12 years in Beis Rivka in Cr. Hts. almost no one wants to stay on for seminary and it has become more and more the norm to go out of town for seminary (ditto for Beis Yaakovs in Brooklyn and attending sem. out of Bklyn)
so a new, expensive "need" has been created and parents are put in a position wherein they don't want to be the "bad ones," preventing their children from doing what most of their peers are doing
Yankel Nosson
08-05-2003, 01:00 PM
I have seen letters where the Rebbe advocated going into debt for issues of chinuch. One I recall, the person wanted to move to a community that would be a better influence on his children, but it would involve going into debt. The Rebbe told him he should do it. Also, the FR would go into debt to acheive certain projects. In fact, is it so much different from a family having another child that they "can't afford"?
EtzChaim613
08-06-2003, 11:20 AM
Going into debt is the cause of many, many shalom bayis issues. Certainly I am not endorsing using birth control so that people do not have more children they cannot afford. I am endorsing saying NO despite what the norm is becoming in Brooklyn and elsewhere. Taking on extra debt is not always a sound policy and should be evaluated from a much more adult perspective than "I don't want to be the 'bad guy'" syndrome.
The "bad guy" syndrome is extremely goyish in my eyes. Should we let our children listen to the same music, dress the same, use the same entertainment as others so as not to be the "bad guy." Maybe sometimes it is necessary to say to our children. . . we can't afford this. . . but we are willing to help. For example, "you raise half the funds if this is what you really want and we will raise the other half. . . or you can stay home and go to a local seminary if you would rather use your money for something else."
I don't want to be the hardliner/"bad guy" either, but I don't like to add extra stress and shalom bayis problems to my marriage by taking on debts I cannot handle. So when new NEEDS are created, I like to say. . . this is not a NEED it is a WANT.
letter in the J. Press
I am a frum single mother of three children who go to fine yeshivas.
I lost my job almost eight months ago and I find it so hard to find
employment. I spend endless hours every day searching for employment.
I am a college graduate and quite educated. I receive no financial
support from my ex-husband.
How am I supposed to pay tuition? My kids are good kids. It
seems that only kids who are "off the derech" or not religious get a hand
from so many organizations. What about the regular, good children who
want to be in yeshivas and are thriving? What about children who are
able to function? How can the yeshivas call me in my situation and ask
me for money?
I`ve even provided the yeshivas with my recent, highly qualified
resume, in hopes they know of someone who can help me with find
employment. I have one son who will not be allowed to participate
in the graduation celebration if I don`t come up with the balance
of tuition — can this be more humiliating for my son? Are the
yeshivas willing to toss children out into the streets if they can`t come up with tuition?
I can`t blame the yeshivas forwanting their tuition in order to pay their staff, but at what cost? Doesn`t anyone have a heart these days, because mine is surely bleeding.
I can`t even fall asleep at night until 2 or 3 a.m., when I pass out from
physical and mental exhaustion. And then it`s the challenge of
functioning the next day. What am I supposed to do? I am desperate!"
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