Long term Chassidus Seder

[Chabad Friend]

Over the past three years or so, I have received various types of hadrocho from L Rabbonim, RY's and bochurim re: "what comes first" when learning Chassidus. I am amazed that after so many years, a universal system hasn't been developed.

Apparently, there was a system at the original TT, but that changed early on.

I would like a thread devoted to the topic, and I hope people contribute what they think are maamorim more suited to learn first, basic seforim, and the basic maamorim in that sefer. What seforim should be learnt before learning others...

For example, "chassidus" has a view, based on what he has been taught, that the basis of Limud Toras HaChassidus should be the seder Hishtalshelus in the MR's Shaar Hayichud.

Others promote the idea that since the Rashab's maamorim were geared for talmidim, that they should be taught first. Within this view, is there a seder? Should some maamorim in Ranat be learned before others, or from another year? One RY told me that those years from the beginning of TT build upon one another.

Is there a shitta that none of this really matters, and that abi m'lernt, it doesn't really matter what comes first or second?

I would like to know what mashpiyim advise and what the people on the forum with years of TT Chassidus have to say.

[Chabad Friend]

One other question, brought up by Leayis in another thread. He said that there is no concept of having chassidus "under your belt" like the litvishe yeshivos where they might be proud to claim that they have finished a certain masechta or sefer.

Is it true that there is not drive to "finish up" certain seforim, like Samech-Vov or T"O u'k'yotzei bo?

[thatswhy]

the only one who i know that ever tried to make some sort of seder for chassidus is Rabbi i.m. gurary.
RIMG made kovtziem (books) of five mamorim (from different rabba'iem) that all talk about the same subject. he made about ten books then he stoped - i don't know why.
it gave the sutdents a baisic caoncept of chasidus thought. brieah yes me'ayin, akodim nekodim uv'rudim etc.

[Torah613]

Originally posted by Chabad Friend
One other question, brought up by Leayis in another thread. He said that there is no concept of having chassidus "under your belt" like the litvishe yeshivos where they might be proud to claim that they have finished a certain masechta or sefer.

Is it true that there is not drive to "finish up" certain seforim, like Samech-Vov or T"O u'k'yotzei bo? See the letter of the Rebbe 7 of Chanukah 5711 (IK v 4 p 95/ LS v 10 p242).l

[Torah613]

I cannot begin to understand the opinion that "none of this really matters"...

[Yankel Nosson]

Originally posted by Torah613
I cannot begin to understand the opinion that "none of this really matters"...
The idea that there is no beginning and no ending, just dive into the "sea" anywhere and everything contains within it everything else. You can't understand the ma'amorim without learning the concepts, but you can't understand the concepts without learning the ma'amorim.

[Torah613]

Still don't see why there should not be a mesudar'dike learning of covering seforim (in a systematic way), or inyonim. That way one may actually end up knowing something.
OTOH, this may explain todays amhaaratzas in Chassidus...

[Chabad Friend]

"thatswhy" or anyone who knows, how would I get a hold of R IM Gurary's kovtzim?

[thatswhy]

pm me 4 his email address.

[masbir]

There is no qestion, that the Rebnes opinion, stated clearly in letters, answers, was ,that every one should have a seder Legirso in Chasidos to cover ground, and have sugous of Chasidos under your belt.

Its very hard to say what to start with, since Chasidos is by divine design, not organized, similar to Gemara. (is Eilu Metzious easier than the Shane'im Ochzin? I dunno, not for me), so you cant really have a system.

However, In Yeshivos thee begin with Derech Mitzvoseichu, Tzizis, Tshuva, Shorehs, than the Go to TRMG, then RNT, then TRSG, or SH, then SV.

Is really one sefer easier then the other? Hard to say.

[Mordechai]

Originally posted by thatswhy
the only one who i know that ever tried to make some sort of seder for chassidus is Rabbi i.m. gurary.
RIMG made kovtziem (books) of five mamorim (from different rabba'iem) that all talk about the same subject. he made about ten books then he stoped - i don't know why.
it gave the sutdents a baisic caoncept of chasidus thought. brieah yes me'ayin, akodim nekodim uv'rudim etc.

whats that called?
where can i get it?

[mordechai7215]

before derech Mitzvosecha, lukietie torah, kuntres umayen and various parts of Tanya are learnt

[chassidus]

In Rabbi Golomb's book Shaar Limud Hachassidus he brings a wealth of sources about these sort of questions. For example:

"The seder for beginers in Tanya: to begin with Igeres HaTeshuva, then Shaar HaYichud ViHaemuna, then the first section [Likkutei Amorim], and then Igeres HaKoshesh until the end."

"This is for beginners. However, after learning it once or twice, from then on one should study Tanya in order."

In general: "The study of Chassidus has to be orderly, just like the study of a sugya in nigleh. And first one has to learn the maamarim that are understood also to beginners. After learning a chapter, one should review it two or three times, so as to be fluent in it. Then, after finishing the entire maamar in this manner, to review it entirely a few times, until it is well absorbed."

"Some examples of maamarim that are easily understood by beginners: Tanya, Derech Mitzvosecha of the Tzemach Tzedek, Kuntres U'Mayin of the Rebbe Rashab, and the simple maamarim of the Freiker Rebbe, which are mostly in the kuntreisim for the 12 of Tamuz, maamarei Yiddish, and others."

"One should not expect, at first, or even after two or three times, that he will understand the maamar with all of its fine points and explanations. Rather, just like learning any other part of Torah (such as Chumash, Gemora, Rambam, and the like), at first, the study is only to know the general pshat (simple meaning)."

"There should always be a study ligirsa (to cover ground)--even though in Chassidus in-depth study is the main thing--in order to broaden ones knowledge of concepts in Chassidus "poshut vissen inyonim"... and this is an indespensable foundation."

"Examples of maamarim good to learn ligirsa: the "chassidishe sedra" (Tora Or and Likkutei Torah on each week's parsha), the kuntreisim printed for specific times, Shaar HaYichud ViHaemuna and Igeres Hateshuva of Tanya, and many of the Mitzvos of Derech Mitzvosecha."

There is also a letter of the Freidiker Rebbe (vol. 3 pg. 404), where he writes in the name of the Rebbe Maharash: "Even though Chassidus in on the level of "egullim" where there is no beginning and no end, still Chassidus must be learnt with an order. And the first thing is the knowledge of the Seder Hahishtalshellus as it is explained in Shaar Hayichud of the Mittler Rebbe."

(Although, it seems that this refers to beginning in-depth study, as opposed to a complete beginner, which should learn the maamarim listed previously.)

In my opinion, it is good to learn "books" and "kuntreisim" first, as these provide complete explanations on a definite subject.

[mordechai7215]

Kuntres U'Mayin of the Rebbe Maharash
Rahsab?

[chassidus]

Yes, of course, it was a slip.