Anger

[Jude]

On the one hand, the Gemara equates anger to worshipping idols. On the other hand l'havdil the "velt" says you have to express your anger, in "healthy" ways of course.

So what's a Jew to do?

I find that this is yet another example of how the goyishe world infiltrates our world, and influences us to the point that many people don't even know what's what anymore.

I've read and heard frum people talk about expressing anger, or actually teaching your children to express their anger in healthy ways like punching a pillow. I once read a list of ten or so suggestions as to how to express anger positively (run around the block, scream into your pillow etc.)!!

What people don't get is, that expressing anger makes you angrier! When the Torah expects us not to be angry, it's NOT that the Torah wants us to REPRESS our angry feelings, but NOT TO HAVE THEM altogether!

The issue is NOT how to EXPRESS the anger, but how to get RID of it! Any suggestions?

One idea is brought in Tanya, about thinking about hashgacha pratis, and that whatever or whoever "made us" angry, is a shaliach of Hashem, and so any anger is actually anger towards Hashem ch'v. This thought puts things in perspective and calms us down.

[BLewbavitch]

BH

I don't see a contradiction here between Gemoroh and Velt, the Gemoroh says simply don't get angry... The Velt are saying if someone does get angry... :mad:

They are not telling us to become angry, I think they are saying that if one become angry R"L, it's probably best to vent it off in certain ways (not by beating some poor guy up).


The safest way is stay away from anger! :) DON'T GET ANGRY!

[Jude]

they're not telling us to become angry, but expressing anger is definitely not in line with Torah

[BLewbavitch]

The mere fact of anger isn't!

If someone is already angry then it's probably best that it gets expressed in certain ways (like punching a pillow etc.).

[Shliachwannabe]

Jude, I don't get what you're asking. The fact that the Alter Rebbe deals with issues of anger, depression, jealosy, etc. does that make Torah accept anger. I think you, yourself answered it in your own post. Why the world deals with it, is the same reason why Tanya deals with it. I think methods of expression of anger IS getting rid of it. The proof is, that once you punch the pillow you don't seem to be that angry anymore.

[Jude]

to answer both of you:

the world is into "anger management" which includes expressing it, not necessarily eliminating it (that might not be healthy :rolleyes: )
Tanya talks about anger and depression and why it's inappropriate to begin with, how to get rid of it, or even how not to get into those states to begin with!

[Shliachwannabe]

So why are you all of a sudden becoming "tzukratz" what the world thinks. The world thinks it's better for a couple to first live together than get married. So what?

[Jac]

IMHO, from what I have learned, the point is not that you can never feel anger. We are humans. That is a natural reaction, one which we do not necessarily have power over. The point is to refrain from acting out on the anger. Acting out on the anger mean becoming angry, committing an angry act, thinking angry thoughts, etc. But becoming angry? I do not know where it says that that is in our control. It is similar to thoughts, as far as I understand. Inappropriate thoughts will appear in your brain--they only become a sin when they are dwelled upon, when you consciously allow it to sit there.

[Jude]

precisely right Jac
which is why the secular approach is completely at odds with Torah
who cares you ask Shliachwannabe? because our very own frum and Chassidic world is tremendously mushpa by these and countless other ideas on interpersonal relationships, parenting, marriage etc. from the secular world.
I actually heard the pillow idea in a Chassidus class, from the teacher

[Jac]

Wow, what a great feeling to actually see a comment like, "you're right!" I was beginning to think that I'll be perpetually seen as wrong here ;-).

Btw, who says there's s/thing wrong with dealing with your anger by punching a pillow?

[Jude]

how infuriating! No sooner do I agree, than you question me on something you yourself said!
in your very own post, you wrote you can't act out on the anger. Well, punching a pillow isn't something you do when you're happy (generally speaking, that is ;) )

[Jac]

Lol :D . Guess having a peaceful situation was too good to be true.
What I meant was, if punching a pillow is going to prevent you from acting out on ur anger, maybe it isn't bad. Just as counting to ten will help you cool down, and I doubt would be considered acting out on your anger, so too with the pillow. Why not?

[Jude]

you tell me ... is punching anything (person, pillow ..) a method to express or eliminate?

[mendelp]

Talking about anger. In Sefer Hama'amorim Ranat (5659) in the first ma'amor (p 5 two thirds of the way down) the Rebbe Rashab quotes a Raishis Chochmo that a sgula for anger is not to speak when one is angry. The ma'amor is dealing with the ma'alo of speach and "in passing" He mentions this inyan.

[Shliachwannabe]

When the Alter Rebbe gives practical advice how to deal with anger, or with depression, or with laziness; what meditations to think about etc., then what the Alter Rebbe is basically giving us, are the tools how not to manifest these bad emotions and how to deny and eradicate them. If a mashpia tells a bochur to punch a pillow so as not to allow these traits to actualize, what is so terrible about that. Why the mashpia doesn't take the Alter Rebbe's approach, is beyond me. But I think the motive of the mashpia is trying to bring about the same result; eliminating the negative natural reactiion.

[ChachChach]

you gotta start somewhere. the ideal would be to NOT get angry at all, but if you're still working on that, then you need someway to deal with the negative emotions. and btw, as beinonim, we wouldnt be able to not get angry-but as jac says, the feeling would come up and you push it away-you control yourself. and this is possible, bc thats the nature of man-to be able to control his heart (moach shalit al halev)

anger might stem from lack of bitachon, ie, how could Hashem do something like THIS to ME. or it could stem from pride, ie, how could THAT person do something like that to ME! in both cases, one should deal directly with the problem, ie bittul

[Jude]

<<Why the mashpia doesn't take the Alter Rebbe's approach, is beyond me. >>

maybe he thinks he's a therapist :eek:

[BLewbavitch]

BH

Thanks you ChachChach, you took the words out of my mouth!

[Jac]

It would be great if techniques to control oneself from expressing anger would be expressed here on this thread.
I'll be back with some ideas of my own soon ;).
Looking forward!

[Jac]

The ramifications of anger are terrible. The people who you let your anger out on feel terrible, the people around feel terrible, and-most of all-you end up feeling terrible too. The expression "drunk on anger" cannot possibly be truer-it's an out of control feeling; we say and do things we would never have done otherwise. "Anger is one letter short of danger."

So how do we deal?

There's the good old-fashioned "counting-to-ten-before-you-speak." Old-fashioned and true. Taking another few moments and collecting yourself makes all the difference. Take a walk, leave the room, close your eyes. This is similar to what mendelp mentioned. "Speak in anger and you'll make the best speech you'll live to regret."

Anger is all about control. When the weather turns out all wrong, and your friend lets you down, and your summer plans backfire, and you're doing poorly in yeshiva, and the funds are low, and the pressure is on, and you blow up in anger, you are basically expressing your frustration that things did not go the way you wanted it to. I was unable to control things properly. I was unable to control the weather, my friend, the poor planning, my marks, my money.
Since the root of anger is control, one technique of controlling it is to remember that it is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Stop and think: this is out of my control. There is nothing I can do about it. Getting angry will not help me. As elementary as this sounds, it really does work.
Try it.

[Jude]

Agree, though have one little change.
When you say: it's out of MY control, there's nothing I can do, it makes it sound like if I did have the power, I would do things differently. Now sometimes this is fine, but in certain situations it's not.

This reminds me of the statement that lo aleinu, aveilim or consolers are not supposed to say. They are not supposed to say, "what can you do ..." because it sounds like if they COULD have done something, they would have done differently than Hashem ...

[Jac]

You're right, but in a lot of situations we do have control. (We do have control over whether we waste time or not, how we speak, etc. etc.). Even in situations where we don't have control, it's good to remember that "this is out of my control" there too--i.e. there's nothing I can do about, [and there never was].

[ChachChach]

i heard a nice quote once. you cant choose your life, but you can choose how to live it. we cant control what happens in life, but we can choose the way we react, like jac said. and for anyone who says "what do you mean control myself, is it my fault that i get angry? and if i'm really feeling this emotion, i should let ppl know! why should i be a faker?", just remember that YES the point for our existance is to work on ourselves. when you go out to elevate the world, part of that includes elevating yourself:).

a good statagy for siblings-pretend that this brother/sister/parent is not part of your family. you'd be surprised at what you can put up with from strangers, but when it comes to your own family..... try to remind yourself that if this was a friend, you wouldnt be taking it so personally-you'd be treating that person differently. as weird as it sounds, it actually helps.

and when all else fails....remind yourself...that you're going to be doing a lot of apologizing for this when the days over, so you might as well avoid the problems in the first place:)