Umos Ha'olam and the Mazolos vis a vis Tefilla and Bitachon

[noahidelaws]

The Rebbe says (don't have the source with me now) that the concepts of bitachon and tefila are also applicable to umos ha'olam.

But if the umos ha'olam are under the dominion of the mazolos, how do tefila and bitachon work? Would the Rebbe's famous hesber in Shemos about "tracht gut vet zein gut," i.e., the merit of positive thinking itself cancels out the person's blame, apply also to them?

Otherwise, what basis is there for bitachon--s'iz doch "ein tzadik ba'aretz asher ya'aseh tov ve'lo yecheta," (as the Rebbe says in that sicha)?

And if it has been decree by the mazolos that calamity befall them, then how can tefilla be efficacious--the mazolos have decreed, and that's the end of the story, no?

And it's intellectually dishonest to advise someone to pray if you know that that prayer will not be efficacious.

[Dov]

Who says that hesber will apply to them? Maybe bitachon = belief in Hashgacha. (like the other opinions mentioned in the Sicha)

Tefila cannot change their Mazal, but it could avert punishment. (they still have sechar Vaonesh)

[noahidelaws]

1. The way the Rebbe defines it, bitachon means belief that Hashem will actually help--"vet zein gut." Do you have a source for suggesting otherwise?

2. But my question was: if punishment has been foreordained by the Mazolos/70 Sarim, how can tefilla be effective in averting that punishment?

Furthermore, by Yidden we say that "Yehi Ratzon," i.e., a request for a bitul hagezeira, means to be me'orer from a level higher than ratzon. Can that concept apply to umos ha'olam, velche nemen zich fun chitzoniyus haRatzon?

[Dov]

Originally posted by noahidelaws
1. The way the Rebbe defines it, bitachon means belief that Hashem will actually help--"vet zein gut." Do you have a source for suggesting otherwise?

2. But my question was: if punishment has been foreordained by the Mazolos/70 Sarim, how can tefilla be effective in averting that punishment?

3. Furthermore, by Yidden we say that "Yehi Ratzon," i.e., a request for a bitul hagezeira, means to be me'orer from a level higher than ratzon. Can that concept apply to umos ha'olam, velche nemen zich fun chitzoniyus haRatzon?

See the sicha for many sources about Bitachon. You need a source that the Rebbe's chidush included goyim before you ask, you can't ask a question b'dochek :classic:

The mazalos don't ordain punishment; punishment means -by definion- a result of a bad choice. cf Ninveh.

3. Probably not. But it could have the simple meaning. Not every deeper explanation need apply to goyim.

[noahidelaws]

1. I don't have access to the sicha just now, and don't know how to find it online--could you post the link?

2. Well, it's not necessarily the result. There is the known chakira the Rebbe refers to about the concept of sechar ve'onesh--whether it is a direct, natural outcome of one's choice, or it is milemaala.

And I didn't suggest that the decisions of the mazolos were arbitrary--obviously they are commensurate with man's choice.

In any case, why can't you say that when a non-Jew sins, the sar appointed over him decrees that he be punished?

3. Now that I know the deeper meaning of yehi Ratzon, the simple meaning eludes me. Care to elaborate?

[Dov]

Originally posted by noahidelaws
1. I don't have access to the sicha just now, and don't know how to find it online--could you post the link?

2. Well, it's not necessarily the result. There is the known chakira the Rebbe refers to about the concept of sechar ve'onesh--whether it is a direct, natural outcome of one's choice, or it is milemaala.

And I didn't suggest that the decisions of the mazolos were arbitrary--obviously they are commensurate with man's choice.

In any case, why can't you say that when a non-Jew sins, the sar appointed over him decrees that he be punished?

3. Now that I know the deeper meaning of yehi Ratzon, the simple meaning eludes me. Care to elaborate?

1.It's in chelek lamed hei. Search for bitachon.
2.Mazalos is an astrological influence - not the same as the Ayin Sarim. (i'm not too baki in this sugya), but the influences are IRRESPECTIVE of man's choice - that's the whole point. (Though there is certainly a Cheshbon/Hashgacha Protis, but lav davka does it have to do with his choice)
3. = may you decree (as a result of your desire); a simple expression of prayer like a servant to his master.

[noahidelaws]

1. I think you mean chelek lamed vav.

2. I was under the impression that the koach of the mazolos stems from the 70 Sarim. Not so?

In any case, RebYid pointed out to me a fascinating Raavad on Hilchos Teshuva 5:5, who comments (among other things):

"It is known that all events in a man's life, small and great, the Creator turned over to the power of the constellations. But He implanted within him the intellect to take hold of himself and go forth from subjugation to the constellation, and this is the power invested in man to be good or evil." (The end of the quote is also very interesting, but I don't know how to translate it, so I won't attempt to.)

I.e., the Ra'avad says clearly that by exercising the intellect, or what we know as the nefesh hasichlis, man has the power to transcend the dominion of the mazolos.

But we must still clarify how this fits in with what we know from Chasidus about how the mazolos tem from chitzoniyus haRatzon, etc.

[emes m'eretz]

The Rebbe says (don't have the source with me now) that the concepts of bitachon and tefila are also applicable to umos ha'olam.

But if the umos ha'olam are under the dominion of the mazolos, how do tefila and bitachon work? Would the Rebbe's famous hesber in Shemos about "tracht gut vet zein gut," i.e., the merit of positive thinking itself cancels out the person's blame, apply also to them?

Otherwise, what basis is there for bitachon--s'iz doch "ein tzadik ba'aretz asher ya'aseh tov ve'lo yecheta," (as the Rebbe says in that sicha)?

And if it has been decree by the mazolos that calamity befall them, then how can tefilla be efficacious--the mazolos have decreed, and that's the end of the story, no?

And it's intellectually dishonest to advise someone to pray if you know that that prayer will not be efficacious.

Why can't you answer as follows:

Re prayer: Hashem controls the mazel. So a non-Jew can duven to Hashem, and Hashem can then control the mazel in a way that is favorable.

Re bitochon: The Rebbe explains that when someone has bitochon, then (as a reward for having the bitochon) the punishment can be averted.

In other words, since Hashem controls everything that happens, therefore prayer and bitochon help, even by a non-Jew.

[JewishHiphop]

Why can't you answer as follows:

Re prayer: Hashem controls the mazel. So a non-Jew can duven to Hashem, and Hashem can then control the mazel in a way that is favorable.

Re bitochon: The Rebbe explains that when someone has bitochon, then (as a reward for having the bitochon) the punishment can be averted.

In other words, since Hashem controls everything that happens, therefore prayer and bitochon help, even by a non-Jew.

I would agree, and see also the prayer of King Solomon a'h from the inauguration of the First Beit HaMikdash (holy Temple in Jerusalem.)

[noahidelaws]

Here is the sicha to which I referred in the 1st post above:

Belief in G–d Includes Trust in G–d and Prayer


Both prayer and trust in G–d,[1] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn1) whose basis is faith in G–d, are relevant not only to Jews, but also to gentiles. They are binding upon all mankind equally, just as all the details of the Noahide commandments are a part of the 613 Mitzvot that Jews were commanded.

Although Jewish observance of these laws is on a comparatively higher level, their underlying theme—“He [G–d] formed it [the world] to be civilized”[2] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn2)—applies to all mankind equally.

The commandment to reject idolatry and embrace faith in G–d is of the utmost importance for gentiles as well, for they too are commanded to believe in the existence of the Creator and Director of the universe. In fact, denial of the existence of G–dliness a la “The river is mine, and I made myself”[3] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn3) is considered a sin worse than all others.[4] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn4)

Abraham revealed and publicized to all mankind the concept that there exists One Who Creates and Directs the entire world. Of him it is said, “Abraham was the first.”[5] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn5) Afterwards, at the Giving of the Torah, every single Jew was charged with this task: “Moses was commanded via a direct divine revelation [to tell the Jewish people] to compel all the world’s inhabitants to undertake the laws commanded to Noah’s descendants”[6] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn6)—starting with the commandment to reject idol worship and believe in G–d.

It is reasonable to suggest that this principle includes trusting in G–d to bestow bounty upon His creations, for faith in G–d should affect one’s lifestyle and worldly conduct. It should bring the person to observe the Creator’s commandments in this lowly world. The general theme of these commandments is “He [G–d] formed it [the world] to be civilized.”[7] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn7) G–d is omnibenevolent, and since one who is benevolent by nature performs acts of benevolence with others, G–d too wishes to act benevolently towards His creations. To this end, He commanded them to behave in a civilized manner by fulfilling the law to promote justice, and the like.

Moreover, it is logical to say that gentiles should also attain a true recognition of the concepts that “Everything that G–d does is for the best,”[8] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn8) and “This too is for the best.”[9] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn9)

Similarly obvious is that the commandment to believe in G–d logically includes praying to Him by requesting one’s needs, and the like.

Proof of this may be adduced from the prophet Jonah, whom G–d sent to Nineveh (which was led by Pharaoh) to awaken its inhabitants to repentance and prayer.

All this occurred even after the decree was ruled,[10] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn10) as is stated explicitly in the prophet’s words, of whom it is said, “He revealed His secret to His servants, the prophets.”[11] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn11) This is because “The prophet’s predictions of divine retribution” are reversible, for “G–d is long-suffering, great in kindness, and He regrets bringing misfortune. They may have repented and been forgiven, like the people of Nineveh.”[12] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn12)

This has become a part of the Torah’s lessons. It teaches us that even the people of Nineveh, gentiles, are commanded to repent and pray that G–d fulfill their needs. However, for them this is not an independent Mitzvah, for they are only duty-bound to follow the seven Noahide laws. Rather, this is a subsection of the Mitzvah to reject idol worship and believe in G–d. For Jews, this is counted as an independent Mitzvah, but now is not the occasion to elaborate upon this.

This brings us to an additional point concerning the duty of the Jewish people “to compel all the world’s inhabitants to undertake the laws commanded to Noah’s descendants.”[13] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn13) Aside from permeating gentiles with faith in the Creator and Director of the universe—that “this city has a master”[14] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn14)—we must add, and with emphasis, that G–d is omnibenevolent, and that since He is benevolent, He naturally performs acts of benevolence with others.

Hitva’aduyot 5745, Vol. 5, pp. 2721-2722.

[1] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref1) In the Hebrew, “bitachon.”

[2] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref2) Isaiah, 45:18.

[3] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref3) Pharaoh’s declaration of godhood—Ezekiel, 29:3.

[4] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref4) Or HaTorah, Nach, vol. 2, p. 767.

[5] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref5) Ezekiel, 33:24.

[6] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref6) Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, 8:10.

[7] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref7) Isaiah, 45:18.

[8] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref8) Babylonian Talmud, Berachot, 60b.

[9] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref9) ibid., Ta’anit, 9a. The former implies that although events are grave at the moment, everything G–d does ultimately has a positive outcome. The latter goes further, implying that even now that which appears bad is in reality good. See Likutei Sichot, Vol. 2, pp. 393-395.

[10] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref10) The decree that Nineveh be destroyed on account of their sins.

[11] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref11) Amos, 3:7

[12] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref12) Mishneh Torah, Laws of the Foundations of the Torah, 10:4.

[13] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref13) Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, 8:10.

[14] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref14) cf. Genesis Rabba, 39:1.




Here is the quote from Shlomo Hamelech referred to in the last post:

“Even to the gentile who is not from Your nation, Israel, who comes from a distant land for the sake of Your Name ... You should listen.”[1] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftn1)

[1] (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/#_ftnref1) II Kings, 8:41-43.

[emes m'eretz]

It's Kings I, not II.

[noahidelaws]

thanks!

[emes m'eretz]

Welcome.