Bais Yaakov vs. Chabad school

[byc88]

i was wondering wat is people's opinion on going to a bais yaakov versus a lubab school

[takeMEhigher]

being lubavitch needs more than just being brought up in a lubavitch home. the atmosphere and friends you are sorrounded by can often have more of an effect than ones family. so if you are trying to go higher in your avoda as a chossid, you should really enroll in a lubavitch school!

[RebYid]

It depends on the person and on the school. I know of at least one case where the Rebbe clearly advised a parent to take their daughter out of a Lubavitch school and put her into a BY school, based on reasons of Yiras Shomayim.

[n'eNow770]

BYC88... cute sn... anyways, u and i have discussed this numorous times, must we go thru it agian?!? Anyways... if you look in search, there's already another thread on this somewhere... try clicking in Bais Yaakov (our home away from home...we'll have lot's of fun...)

[byc88]

takemehigher- wat if the lubab school in my neighborhood isnt a good school and the atmosphere would not be so great

[n'eNow770]

Byc88... in response to that, just keep doing what you're already doing, (wednesdays....) and also what ever happened to learning in R.?

[byc88]

learning in R.?? what

[Torah613]

Private conversations don't belong here.

[mendelp]

Originally posted by RebYid
It depends on the person and on the school. I know of at least one case where the Rebbe clearly advised a parent to take their daughter out of a Lubavitch school and put her into a BY school, based on reasons of Yiras Shomayim.

Unless you can document that I would find it difficult to believe.

[RebYid]

Which part do you find difficult to believe? That the Rebbe agreed with the parent who was worried about Yiras Shomayim?

[n'eNow770]

If the Lubav. school in your area is completely not for you, and you must then find an alternative, then go to Bais Yaakov, verses other things... Just make sure that you ARE learning Chassidus...Perhaps try a Chavrusa on Shabbos? Or learn with a friend of your's who might also be in the same situation... The most important people to talk to this about, is Your Mashpia :) and your parents.

[hishtatchus]

As a general rule, a Lubavitcher should be in a Lubavitch school. There, you can find proper Chassidishe role models, learn all or most subjects (like Chumash) with the Rebbe's perspective, and improve your Hiskashrus by being in the Rebbe's mosad.

However, like all rules, there are some exceptions. If you feel that you are one of them, consult a Mashpia, and possibly a Lubavitch Rabbi (along with your parents).

[n'eNow770]

I'm in the same situation as BYC88... trust me, this is and exception to the rule! And b"H our BY, is more open about Chabad!

[stwill]

Discussed at length in This thread (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?threadid=1359&highlight=bais+yakov)

[roza]

if the "lub" school in your area is not on your level then go to BY- you will get strong foundation in nigleh. but make sure that BY in your area is also on the level and not just the name, that teachers are good.

[hishtatchus]

Roza- I don't think that this is an issue where you can make a blanket statement. Each individual case should be discussed with a Mashpia who knows both of the schools in question. Making a judgement call as to which school is "better" is not a good idea for someone nogeia bedavar.

[roza]

welcome back hisht :classic:
how is life?

[n'eNow770]

Hisht i agree... the best bet is asking a mashpia.

[Nechama]

Each case would be independant. I went to a BY school and then a lubav school. There was no lubav school in the days of my parents and many lubavs were teachers and principals in Brownsville.
It would depend on many different issues for the person involved. I think my mother made the correct decision in my case.
I know bochurim who were in situations of travelling etc to get to a lubav school and went to others. and girls too.
There may be an issue of difficulty with a teacher, or student in the school one is looking at.
What would that be the specific issue for you?
You may respond privately if you wish.

[n'eNow770]

I love doing Lubavitch things in BY. For example, my Ivrit teacher, and my Bear Tefillah teacher will both quote things from a Pasuk, and they ask if anyone has a Chumash, and i looove to hand them my Chitas, cuz i know they won't refuse it! Lol!
And in english class in 9th grade, we had to do a presentation about a famous person who has changed the world, so i did... The REBBE!!!! It really makes me proud to be Lubavitcher in a Snag. School, lol!

[dontgive]

in some cases it makes people stronger cuz you are able to see people that have a different outlook on life and then you can compare it to the lubavitch outlook and see why we are so different then everyone else and what makes us special. it would be good if possible to go to lubavitch functions as well as this will give you a greater sense of what lubavitch is about. i have a friend that went to a non-lubavitch school because there isn't any lubav school in her area. in a certain sense she is more accepting of others. people that are different from us. and it also gave her a strong sense of why lubavitch is special. but on the other hand, there are certain issues that she doesn't know how lubavitch does things. so in a certain sense you do lose out. it all depends on the person and what the lubav school is like vs. the BY one.

[Tevuna]

True you can sometimes have a stronger sense of self but not always. I was in camp for the past two months and got to know a girl. She goes to B.Y. and is so embarrassed if anyone should find out that she lights Shabbos candles, because most of the girls in B.Y. do not light Shabbos candles. This is not a strong sense of self.

[n'eNow770]

In our BY, many girls bentch licht...
Anyways, b/c im in BY, at every chance i get i read Sichas of the Rebbe, etc...
And the strange thing is, is that i was on the phone once with a friend of mine who goes to the Lubav. school out here, and she was amazed at the fact that i knew so much chassidus... Things she didnt even know!
I think by going to BY, it created a drive for me to learn Chassidus even more than if i had been in a Lubav. school!

[dontgive]

i think it depends on the person and on their personality some people have a very strong personality and don't care what others think of them and don't care to stand out but not everyone is like that i think there is no one answer it depends on the person

[Ben Torah]

nenow,

Since you sound like a person who has been exposed to other circles....just curious. From your experience in which ways are lubavitch and bais yaakov girls similar and different.

Thanks

[n'eNow770]

nenow,

Since you sound like a person who has been exposed to other circles....just curious. From your experience in which ways are lubavitch and bais yaakov girls similar and different.

Thanks

Well... WE'RE ALL JEWISH, lol.
But seriously, it depends on the girls...
For instance, i have friends that are very keen into the whole Lubavitch world, they think it's a beautiful thing, and find Chitas to be a very special practice...

There is tho, a MAJOR difference in the outlook of life. The Lubavitch girls are GENERALLY deeper... They think up ideas and questions that whould take a Chassidus upbringing to come up with.
They are less fake... In the BY world, ppl tend to be TOO NICE... FAKELY NICE. "Oh how are you? That's so nice.. uhuh, wow... oy thats so nice!"

But then again there are AMAZZZZING girls there too...

In general the main difference is the outlook on life! Lchaim! :lchaim:

[mordechai7215]

I can't exactly claim to have any direct connection to the above etc, but a few things:
-For some of the Rebbe's letters etc about learning davka in Mosdos Chabad look in LS Cheilek 22 in the back. (K'muvin that just as there is k'lal so to there are pratim, ie those people who for various reasons don't go to Lubav. Mosdos, v'ain con m'komo)
-When my Mother teachs art in BY, one year she brought in a letter from the Rebbe about art and what it means in Avoidas Hashem. The next year she was told "That though she has connections to Chabad (what ever that means) she should please not mention them in class. (though when the class drew pictures of Gedolim, she snuck in a picture of the rebbe Rashab.)
-A shliach once told me concerning the same BY (which happens to be a rather big one -so I'm sure that there are posters here who either know of it or go to it) that a certain Lubav girl who went there, had a teacher who asked the class: "What is the whole purpose of our Torah and Mitzvos?" The Lubav raised her hand and said "To bring about the Geulah!"
The teacher said "No, let me rephrase my question then. What was the world created for?"
The girl raised her hand again "For Moshiach?"
"No" said the teacher.
The shliach then asked the girl "so what was the answer to her questions"
"I don't know" responded the girl "but it wasn't Moshiach or geulah"
(I may not have the pratim 100% in that story, but the toichen is the same).

[dontgive]

nenow, since you go to a BY school i'm just curious do you know what they say is the purpose of the world? also i go to a lubav school and guess what there are many girls that are fakers as well so i guess it happens in all circles. also what would u say are the strong points of BY girls? cuz each group has strong points as well that we can learn from

[Ben Torah]

nenow, since you go to a BY school i'm just curious do you know what they say is the purpose of the world?

This topic is discussed extensively in classical seforim written long before Chabad came into existence and this approach is taught (as far as I know) in all mainstream schools. For a summary, I would strongly suggest the seforim of the ramchal, notably the messilas yeshorim in perek aleph (it was so drilled inot me that I can quote it by heart) and the beginnings of both daas tevunos and derech hashem.

[Yankel Nosson]

since you go to a BY school i'm just curious do you know what they say is the purpose of the world?
It is the approach of "perfecting myself for the sake of myself." Like the way Rabbi Akiva wanted to be able to serve Hashem with mesiras nefesh. However, in this regard Avraham was even more selfless and acheived a greater level of bittul before Hashem.

Each generation according to its needs. The needs of this generation are met only by studying pnimiyus haTorah and relating to other Yidden with an abundance of Ahavas Yisroel. I.e. Chassidus.

[byc88]

the purpose of the world is to serve hashem that is for all people lubavitchers or not

[mordechai7215]

but what does service of hashem do?

[n'eNow770]

The Lubav. aproach, is to do Mitzvos and serve Hashem, so that we can do what He wanted from the beggining-A place for Him in the lower worlds...Zman Mashiach!
The BY aproach, is more of Do because you have to. They look at Moshiach, as if it is an award, and not as if its what HKB"H wants... Or so that's how they project it.
It's more of a focus on be good, so when u get to Olam Haba.... Rather than a more focus on the here and the now, to bring Moshiach now. But it also depends on the paticular teachers!
About traits that BY girls have that we can learn from, the number one answer is their TZNIUS! Have any of you seen "Oz V'Hadar L'vusha" by Rav Falk? It's an ENORMOUS sefer on Tznius... like 500+ pages... And in BY its amazing to see girls hold so strictly to everyone of those Halachos.
But not every BY girl is so amazing in her Tznius etc... Some do things that are very wrong-but u find that everywhere!

About Lubav. Teachers in BY, we have a few. The the wife of the Rosh Yeshiva of the Lubav Yeshiva here, teaches at BY. In Halacha class, our Rebbaim teach what EVERYONE holds by-Litvish, Lubavitch, Sfardim, etc... And us Lubav girls will oft' time quote what the Rebbe etc... says on things-which makes a real Kiddush Lubav. bcuz were showing that we learn on OUR OWN, not only in school, which is a BIG thing!

[stwill]

When I learned Mesilas Yeharim in Beis Yaakov, my teacher said that the purpose of life is to reach Olam Haba.

One of the basic differences is explained beautifully in the following Moshol: (copied from an old post)

Once there was a king, who had a friend. The king wanted to show his friend his great love for him, so he took his friend down to the cellar, where the treausures were stored, gave him a big sack, and said, "Here, fill up this sack with all the stones you see here," and left him in the cellar. The friend sat and fumed. "Here I thought the king loved me, and now he gives me this backbreaking work, to fill up a huge sack with tiny stones!" So he just sat and grumbled about how hard the work was. Once in a while, when someone passed by, he would throw a few stones in, to make it look like he was doing something, but most of the time he just sat and moped.

The Nimshol is obviously about how Hashem sends us down to this world to gather Mitzvos.

The question is: What is the friend's problem? What is wrong with his attitude?

Two answers:

The answer without Chasidus: The friend doesn't realize that the king has sent him down for his own benefit! Every stone he puts in the bag is a precious diamond! The king has given him the chance of a lifetime, and he just doesn't appreciate it!


That is true, of course, but according to Chasidus this friend has a much more serious problem. If he is a true friend of the king, if he really loves and respects the king, he should be happy to have the opportunity to fulfill the king's will! One who truly loves the king will jump at the chance to serve him, even if the job was to collect plain, muddy rocks! The fact that he knows that collecting the stones will benefit him as well, only serves to strengthen his great love for the king, and his desire to serve him. But his main focus is to fulfill the king's will.

[Yankel Nosson]

One of the basic differences is explained beautifully in the following Moshol: Once there was a king, who had a friend...
Nicely put, Stwill. :vodka:

[n'eNow770]

Stwill, i REALLY liked that, Thank you so much. :)

[dontgive]

Stwill, that was a very good comparison. i like it a lot. thank you.

[Ben Torah]

One of the basic differences is explained beautifully in the following Moshol: (copied from an old post).

Very nice moshol, but not really appropriate for your point. The distinction between the two approaches you mention are between those who serve hashem out of ahava and those who serve hashem for reward. See Avos 1:3 and commentaries there. See also Sefer Nefesh Hachaim (Rav Chaim Volozhiner) and sifrei Haramchal.

Perhaps Chassidus stressess the "ahava" approach, but this has been around long before chassidus (read chabad) and many non-chassidim serve hashem this way.

And by the way, I may be wrong, but as far as I know the earliest source for this moshol is in the writings of Rav Eliyahu Dessler (michtav meieliyahu chelek aleph)-- the mashgiach of Ponevezh

[Tevuna]

But Ben Torah, this is the difference between chassidus and mussar. When the Baal Shem Tov came around many people were not acting the way they should and the Baal Shem Tov sough to make a change, and make a change he did.

One of my cousins used to learn in Chicago in Mesivta and he told the following story. He went to put on tefilin with some Russian Jews in the Misnagdish shul. Another guy saw him and asked him: "So you want to be marbin zuchyus?".
My cousin answered him "If there is a Jew who needs help shouldn't I be helping him?"

[stwill]

Ben Torah, as I mentioned elsewhere, neither the Besht nor the AR ever said anything that is not based on Torah. The difference is in the emphasis.

To me, as one who learned through high school in a Bais Yaakov and then went to Lubavitch seminaries, this Moshol semmed to pinpoint the basic difference in outlook. The teacher's statement I quoted above (that the purpose of life is to reach Olam Haba) is but one example of something which grates on the ears of anyone who ever breathed the air of Chabad Chassidus, but did not seem to bother any of my classmates.

Of course, this is a generalization, but I believe that's what you asked for.

There are many other issues, specifically that of how to relate to a Jew who is not (yet) Shomer Mitzvos, which I'll leave for later.

( BTW I love the school I went to and I have tremendous respect for the teachers there, who gave me a strong foundation in Yiras Shomayim and love for learning, which created a very fertile soil for the seeds of Chasidus to sprout.)

P.S. Concerning Rav Dessler, I have heard it said that he learned Chabad Chassidus and that parts of his Sefer are actually based on Tanya. I'm sure there's a thread on that somewhere.

[zaraza]

Originally posted by RebYid
It depends on the person and on the school. I know of at least one case where the Rebbe clearly advised a parent to take their daughter out of a Lubavitch school and put her into a BY school, based on reasons of Yiras Shomayim.


just for the record:
In most cases and as a general rule the Rebbe told people to stay/go to Lubavitch Yeshivas even if there are disagreements with hanhalah. Of course there are always the exceptions which were horaa proti to certain people.
I saw two letters where the Rebbe gave two reasons for this:
1.The Rebbe wrote to a parent that who are you to take away the bchirah chafsi from this child and all his future generations (by putting him in a non Lubavitch school).
2.As long as he is in a Lubavitch school the Rebbeim are Ballebos over him and they take care of him (this was not speaking about tomchei tmimmim which is a seperate parsha).

[dstv]

I know of a specific case ( a girl who was in sem with me) where she couldnt manage with the french in the lubav school, so the rebbe said she shoudl go to bais yakov- she is a strong lubav, married on shichus. the by where she lives has many lubavs and the principle is very lubav friendly

but all BY's are different, in my hometown, my school was small, and whenever we wanted to invite the by girls to a purim party we would always have to send the invitations secretly, the principle wouldnt let them have anything to do with a lubav school. even more , we shared a math teacher, both of our schools moved premisis. it happened to be that the BYs school building was nicer looking. so our non jewish math teacher told the principle of BY, "If i would be lubav i would send my daughter here, the facilities are so much nicer" so the principle told her: " well if you were lubav, i wouldnt let your daughter in" this teacher was shocked when she told us this story, How were we supposed to undo this chillul Hashem?

[byc88]

B'h in my neighberhood there is a gr8 bais yaakov that is very lubab friendly. We have chassidus shiurim after school in the school building. Many girls are actually jealous that they don't come from lubavitch families and are not lubavitch. As lubavitchers we always have to make a kiddush lubavitch and we get the oppurtinity much more in a by school but... one thing that we dont do right is a chilul lubavitch and that has happened before. There are some girls in the by that are huge snags and are extremely against Chassidus or anyting to do with Chabad but the majority is good and therefore in my case i think that a by school is a better choice than the lubab school. :nervous:

[n'eNow770]

Well, coming from a fellow Lublob, who goes to BY...
I think the BY where i come is totally open to Chabad-see my previous posts, the worse is when girls make a Chilul Lubavitch... There's a paticular group who do this, and the rest of us Lublobs sit in shock as these girls say and do things that are so not b'kavod of a Chasida, let alone of a Bas Yisroel altogether!
But the rest of us are b"H better...A few ppl think that our BYC-Bais Yaakov Chabad is like a cult! But other girls are envious that there's no bys-satmeer bysf-sfardi, etc... I have one girl in my class who on various times has told me "i wish i was Lubavitch" and when i explained to her what Chitas is, she was amazed...
Recently a lot of us BYC'ers went on Mivtioim-straight after school-and ppl asked what skwl we were from(cuz they thought our skwl had sent us out) So we answered BY, but it was pretty funny-esp when girls from a LubLob skwl were also there doing Mivtzoim! :)

[n'eNow770]

Recently, this school year, there have been a rather considerable anti-Lubav attacks at my BY... it got to a point that we had to tell our menahel. So, he made a speech in the morning all about how no one should ever make another person feel bad if they are Ashkenaz or Sfardi, Chassidishe or Misnaged... it was really nice, and one of the girls who had made a Lubav girl cry, came up to her and apologized!

[HershelBP]

do you mean like this Lubavitcher School?
http://onlysimchas.com/galleries/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewsimcha&SimchaID=29055&galleryid=20191&simchatypeid=12

א שאנדע און א חרפה!!!!
who needs this embarrassment?

[n'eNow770]

Noooooooooooooo we r very very very different!

[Sara R.]

I know of at least one case where the Rebbe clearly advised a parent to take their daughter out of a Lubavitch school and put her into a BY school, based on reasons of Yiras Shomayim.
And I know of a case, many of them, that the Rebbe clearly stated that the girls should switch from BY to a Lubavitch school

[Avodas Avoda]

I wouldn't get involved here, but I think it has been demonstrated that the Rebbe's policy is not once-size-fits-all. There are some places where there are no Lubavitch schools, and parents send their children to a non-Lubavitch Mesivta (for boys) or Beis Yaakov (for girls). In the case that there are both Lubavitch and non-Lubavitch schools, one hopes that the Lubavitch school is a good school. But in the (hopefully rare) case that the Lubavitch school isn't a healthy place, or the learning isn't good, or for any other reason the parents don't feel comfortable with the place, then how can we (rhetorically) take the right away from parents to choose the better school?

I can tell you that I know guys that come from a non-Lubavitch s(Chassidish) Mesivta in Monsey and they make the guys that come from CH look very grub in comparison.

I can tell you that if I had to choose between a ChaGaS (or a Litvish Mesivta, etc.) school and a Tzfati school with Moshiach flags in each classroom (v'chu, vd'l), the choice would be very easy for me... I'll take my chances with the ChaGaS school and at least give my kid a fighting chance of staying Chassidish (for example).

[Avodas Avoda]

I know this is long since old news, but the moshol that Ben Torah said came from Rov Dessler's holy sefer Michtav M'Eliyahu may yet have its roots in Chassidus. While I have not seen the moshol anywhere myself, it is well known (and Rov Dessler zy''a was happy to claim as much) that Michtav M'Eliyahu is based largely on Nefesh HaChaim and the Tanya.

[n'eNow770]

In L.A. the Yeshiva YOEC is run by R' Shochet who used to not be a Lubavitcher once upon a time, and he is a major Talmid Chochom, a large percentage of what he learnt wasnt Lubavitch things, but by being in a different atmosphere, it made him the Gadol that he is...

[BaisHamikdashBa]

In L.A. the Yeshiva YOEC is run by R' Shochet who used to not be a Lubavitcher once upon a time, and he is a major Talmid Chochom, a large percentage of what he learnt wasnt Lubavitch things, but by being in a different atmosphere, it made him the Gadol that he is...
You should hear his stories about them cutting his beard!!!!

I tottaly disagree! And i think many others do!
You cant be smart if you learn in a lubavitch yeshiva????

[stwill]

In L.A. the Yeshiva YOEC is run by R' Shochet who used to not be a Lubavitcher once upon a time, and he is a major Talmid Chochom, a large percentage of what he learnt wasnt Lubavitch things, but by being in a different atmosphere, it made him the Gadol that he is...

Are you implying that Lubavitcher Yeshivos cannot bring forth real Talmidei Chachomim? Are all Talmidei Chachomim in Lubavitch tzugekumene? Can anyone enlighten us on this claim?


BTW, I am in the process of reading "Neshamah Im Atzmah", a book in Hebrew that explains very nicely, in story form, many of the basic differences between Chabad and non-Chabad Yeshivos, both in learning and in Avodas Hashem. I would recommend it to anyone who is fluent enough in Hebrew and wants to understand this issue clearly. (Ben Torah, if you still check out this thread once in a while, I think this book would interest you.)

[mordechai7215]

In L.A. the Yeshiva YOEC is run by R' Shochet who used to not be a Lubavitcher once upon a time,
It's not so pushot. His unlce was Rabbi Chadakov (he married a Shochet), the family had a kesher with the Rebbe soon after moving to Toronto (as in the ma'ase with Rabbi Shochet's sister -Mrs. Newman) Furthermore the Rosh's older brothers (Emanuel for sure) went to Lubavither Yeshiva, and the Rosh himself wanted to go to a Lubavitcher Yeshivah -though for unknown reasons (to me atleast) he never went. (It's interesting to note that he once told Reb Mendel something to the point of "you think you had it hard with the Communist etc -I had it harder going to a non lubav. yeshivah. As well he once asked (the Rebbe I believe) if being a Rosh yeshivah in TT was akin to learning there)

and he is a major Talmid Chochom, a large percentage of what he learnt wasnt Lubavitch things, but by being in a different atmosphere,
I've heard him say (though b'emes it shouldn't be a chidush) that lubavitcher bachur despite chassidus, farbrengens, mivtzoiem etc can do as much if not more the a a non Lubav.
it made him the Gadol that he is...
To think if he had stayed he would have been a gadol hador.

[Shmoozer]

When I learned Mesilas Yeharim in Beis Yaakov, my teacher said that the purpose of life is to reach Olam Haba.

I myself go to a Bais Yaakov school, and one of the hardest thing I am confronted daily with, is their constant self involvment.
Whenever I try and argue that our purpose in life is to make this world a dwelling place for G-d, they always aruge with me.
I love my BY, and what makes me happy that I go to BY is, I have a stronger love for lubavitch, and I am exposed to more ways in yiddishkeit.
Then there is always the rare occurence of small problems coming up in class... ie... we were sitting in historia the other day discussin false moshiachs... and the teacher was saying how we have only 2 qualifications to know who is the real moshiach, so a lubab raised her hand and said, well doesnt the rambam say such and such also, like moshiach has to come from beis dovid? so this one snag piped up, is the lubavitcher rebbe from beis dovid?
Now, obviously this non-lubavitch teacher wouldnt know the answer, and this question was brought up to cause rifts.... the same snag also describes shabtai tzvi's ways of darshening to different communities, as "it was a farbrengen"... sometimes its hard, but it makes me appreciate what I have

[BaisHamikdashBa]

I myself go to a Bais Yaakov school, and one of the hardest thing I am confronted daily with, is their constant self involvment.
Whenever I try and argue that our purpose in life is to make this world a dwelling place for G-d, they always aruge with me.
I love my BY, and what makes me happy that I go to BY is, I have a stronger love for lubavitch, and I am exposed to more ways in yiddishkeit.
Then there is always the rare occurence of small problems coming up in class... ie... we were sitting in historia the other day discussin false moshiachs... and the teacher was saying how we have only 2 qualifications to know who is the real moshiach, so a lubab raised her hand and said, well doesnt the rambam say such and such also, like moshiach has to come from beis dovid? so this one snag piped up, is the lubavitcher rebbe from beis dovid?
Now, obviously this non-lubavitch teacher wouldnt know the answer, and this question was brought up to cause rifts.... the same snag also describes shabtai tzvi's ways of darshening to different communities, as "it was a farbrengen"... sometimes its hard, but it makes me appreciate what I have
How about this... Does the earth revolve around the sun or V.V.?

In a normal science class they teach it to you the wrong way (against the Ramabms shita) but you wouldnt know that its wrong un til someone told you.... In non lubavitch school you dont always realize that they are teaching stuff in the derech of mussar rather than Chassidus or teaching other thing that chassidus doesnt agree with...

[Shmoozer]

How about this... Does the earth revolve around the sun or V.V.?
whatever Lubavitch doesnt say they say on that matter, I wouldnt be able to tell you which way it supposedly does go, b/c too much mussar has gotten me confused.. but I know forsure, they teach it wrong, I even wrote a whole paper on it for my principal to prove it to her, apparently she wasnt convinced.

[LION]

whatever Lubavitch doesnt say they say on that matter, I wouldnt be able to tell you which way it supposedly does go, b/c too much mussar has gotten me confused.. but I know forsure, they teach it wrong, I even wrote a whole paper on it for my principal to prove it to her, apparently she wasnt convinced.

you might want to check out this thread The Sun Orbits the Earth (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3710)

[n'eNow770]

I was not in the least saying that a non Lubav Yeshiva made R' Shochet gr8r then a Lubav one... I was saying tho that experiences alter a person inevitably, each derech leads you to where you need to be at that precise moment. So please stop thrashing me, because your hostility is brutal.
And for the record, i think Lubav Yeshivas are a much smarter opt for any Lubav boy, thank u very much!

[stwill]

Unless a post has been deleted, I don't see what "brutal hostility" you are refering to. I, for one, certainly had no intention of being hostile. I was just trying to verify the claim I thought you were making. I'm glad to hear that that's not what you meant to say, but if you reread your post, maybe you'll understand why it seemed like that's what you meant.

[farmer]

With regard to the claim that not lubavitcher yeshivos produce more lamdanim than a lubavitch one, the fact is that lubavitcher yeshivos are not geared to creating talmedei chachamim and rabbanim, they are out to create shluchim-their focus is on concuring the world, whereas in a not lubavitch "yeshivish community" yeshiva, everyone out there is out to be the next gadol hador. Lubavitch is weak on Rabbanim- we don't have a lot of rabbanim, compared to the not lubavitch world. Our potential rabbanim are building chabad houses all across the world- for better or for worse.

[BaisHamikdashBa]

I was not in the least saying that a non Lubav Yeshiva made R' Shochet gr8r then a Lubav one... I was saying tho that experiences alter a person inevitably, each derech leads you to where you need to be at that precise moment. So please stop thrashing me, because your hostility is brutal.
And for the record, i think Lubav Yeshivas are a much smarter opt for any Lubav boy, thank u very much!
Thats like saying i wont eat b/c if im supposed to live ill live anyway.

Lubavitch has tons of Rabbonim, (That might even be the problem.) alot of people have smicha for rabbonus maybe not shimush...

[farmer]

"Lubavitch has tons of Rabbonim, (That might even be the problem.) alot of people have smicha for rabbonus maybe not shimush...[/QUOTE]"

to get smicha in lubavitch aint that hard-everyone is a rabbi- but when t comes down to it and we need a rabbi to sit on a din torah- there is hardly any lubavitch "rabbi" that is fluent in shulchan aruch that can pasken.
When one has a shaila- there is merely a handful of rabbanim one could ask - lubavitch is weak on knowledgeable rabbanim

[BaisHamikdashBa]

There is a rabbi and a Rov (Rabbonim). I said there are alot of lubavitcher rabbonim, the Lubavitcher bochurim or Yunger lite that become Rabbonim usually know what they are talking about..... But for a court case.....

[Torah613]

No, there are (relatively) very few good L rabbonim.

[LION]

No, there are (relatively) very few good L rabbonim.

IIRC the Rebbe actually complained about this at a farbrangen (Or was it about rabonim in general not only in lubaviitch?).

[BaisHamikdashBa]

No, there are (relatively) very few good L rabbonim.
I dont mean practicing Rabbonim... I mean as in smart guys who learnt the stuff...

[LION]

I dont mean practicing Rabbonim... I mean as in smart guys who learnt the stuff...

By "stuff" you mean...?

[Torah613]

...guys who know how to open up a shmiras shabbos kehilchoso (in English) and "pasken" a din... :biggrin:

[BaisHamikdashBa]

Lol. I think its Yodin Yodin.

[LION]

Lol, i think its Yodin Yodin or somehting....

Is that meant as a reaply to the question i.e. are you saying that by stuff you mean "yodin yodin" :confused:

[Torah613]

Why is that any better than Yoreh Yoreh? Ask those fellows pshat in a shach in CM...

[BaisHamikdashBa]

B/c if some one went that far hes probably into learning....

[LION]

Why is that any better than Yoreh Yoreh? Ask those fellos pshat in a shach in CM...

I would say that nowadays "adaraba"...

[LION]

B/c if some one went that far hes probably into learning....

See the above post..

[n'eNow770]

This past week, in my BAIS YAAKOV highschool, a very "litfish-thinking" teacher read a letter that was written by Rabbi Willhelm of Chabad in Thailand. She quoted it from being from a Chabad Rabbi, and it was a very moving article, and every girl there was very impressed.

[wannabe]

Sorry if all these points were raised already.
1) There was a Poylishe chosid in Montreal (his name was Silberman or something like that) who taught in Tomchei Temimim. Subsequently, his children learned in the Lubavitcher cheder. At some point his wife started feeling that their children were not getting the same quality chinuch as they would be getting in a ‘regular’ chassidishe cheder, because of the diverse backgrounds of his classmates. She demanded of her husband: ‘Just because you’re teaching in Lubavitch it doesn’t mean we should be compromising on the chinuch of our children’, and she called on him to have their children transferred to the other cheder.

Although he identified with her concerns, he said that such a move should not be made without consulting with the Rebbe. This was around Yud Shvat time, and he was going to NY, and he arranged for himself a Yechidus with the Rebbe.
When he shared his concerns with the Rebbe, the Rebbe rejected the idea for two reasons: 1) Who said that you’re children should be the mushpoim – influenced by others, let them be the ones who are having influence on their classmates.
2) Since they are learning in a mosad that is under ‘der Rebbe der shver’, it is surely what is best for them.

He left the Yechidus unconvinced by both of the arguments, and decided to himself that the Rebbe said what he had to say as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, but since he wasn’t a lubavitcher chosid, he would do what was best for his child. Upon returning to Montreal he transferred his children to the other cheder.

Many years later he met R’ Issak Svei a”h, and – speaking about the above incident – remarked to him ‘today I see that the Rebbe was right’. Rabbi Svei asked him: ‘What happened, did something happen to your children ch”v? So he answered ‘No, my children all grew up to be chassidishe yidden Yirei shomayim vechulu. And yet today when I look at the former classmates of my children, who are on shlichus etc., I see that they acquired something that surpasses anything my children acquired in their cheder. Not only that, my children would not even be able to understand what it is or appreciate it’.

The most beautiful part of the story (in my opinion) is the fact that this chosid, although not a Lubavitcher, was able to reach this recognition.

2) The Rebbe spoke a sicha in the mems (mem hey or vov I think). In it the Rebbe said that he got a letter from a chosid who wrote that some acquaintances were trying to convince him to send his son to a Lubavitcher Yeshiva with the argument that this way he’ll know how to learn. Not knowing a proper response he wrote to the Rebbe.

The Rebbe was screaming by the Farbrengen: ‘How can he be so confused that he couldn’t think of an obvious answer, and he had to write to me? There are so many kovtzim printed. Let him take the kovtzim from our Yeshivos and take kovtzim from their yeshivos, and see black and white who knows how to learn better’.

That particular farbrengen was about limud hanigleh specifically, for which the kovtzim are a tangible indication (and if you contemplate the tremendous number of kovtzim filled with all sorts of chidushei Torah that are continuously being printed (weekly monthly or yearly) by the relatively few Lubavitcher bochurim it is indeed mind boggling).

The same is true about all areas, such yiras shomayim etc. I have heard from numerous non – Lubavitchers that they see a incomparable difference between the Lub. Bochurim and the others.

Rabbi Povarsky was Rosh Yeshiva in Ponivez. His son was once in Canada for a dinner, at which time he remarked to someone that his father told him ‘If you see a bochur with a very eidel face he is probably a Lubavitcher’. And no-one should think that this is past history, because anyone involved with our bochurim can attest to the fact that they’re better than ever!

3) I don’t understand the focus on which Yeshiva Rabbi Schochet went to. Who he is has nothing to do with learning in a misnagdish yeshiva, because there are thousands of roshei yeshiva out there who did learn in M yeshivas, and none of them can compare to him either (alright take it easy).

Why don’t you look at all of the successful Lubavitcher Rys who learned in Lubavitch, and are still (as good or) better than their misnagdishe counterparts (the Wilshanskys, the Kalmansons, Rabbi Steinmetz etc. etc.). In fact if you go into Moznaim – the leading seforim store in Boro Park, they’ll tell you that the leading sefer of shiurim on a mesechte is none other than Reshimos shiurim. Find what R’ Binyomin Zilber said about Rabbi Heshel Greenbergs sefer on tefillin. And the list can go on and on.

4) I’m sure that someone already pointed out that in the hosafos of Likutei sichos (I think 18) there’s a whole section on chinuch, in which there’s a whole section on mosdos Chabad, and it would be a good idea to see first hand the Rebbe’s position.

There’s another few points but no time right now.

[mordechai7215]

I was not in the least saying that a non Lubav Yeshiva made R' Shochet gr8r then a Lubav one... I was saying tho that experiences alter a person inevitably, each derech leads you to where you need to be at that precise moment. So please stop thrashing me, because your hostility is brutal.
And for the record, i think Lubav Yeshivas are a much smarter opt for any Lubav boy, thank u very much!

I wasn't trying to be brutal either

[wannabe]

I don't know if anyone is still on this topic, but in case yes, I must share an answer from the Rebbe that I saw yesterday in a teshurah from the chasuna of Gershon Avtzon (free trans.):

"With wonder (and pain) I read your letter and pan . .

The reason for my wonder is simple: it is customary to read a pan at the "tzion" of the FR.

In this case what can i inform (FR) at the Tzion? that in Israel lives so and so, who is a yrei shomayim etc. and his wife is also from a lubavitch family etc., and they reside in a chabad neighborhood, and they educated their children in the mosdos of the FR,

and I just received a letter from him that he decided to take out his older daughter from the mosad of the FR (of course with theexplanation of the that it is necessary), and therefore he is also removing his younger daughter from mosad of FR, and (therefore) heis moving his and his family's residence away from the chabad neighborhood - and as he writes "in a good time" -

when I come to the tzion "iz vos vill ich nFR bekesher im bsu"t hanak"? (what do I want from FR in connection with the above "good news"?"
ad kan laha"k.

Just would like to add that although it's specifically dealing with the subject matter of this thread, I think it's a very relevant answer for all of us to bear in mind as we approach yud shvat and prepare to write a pan etc.

May we all have genuine besuros tovos for the Rebbe!

[Tamar]

I went to a Bais Yaakov and I am not sure what is different about the two but I do know that chabad people are much more chilled out when it comes to halachot and helping you feel comfortable with doing the right thing. That was my big mistake. I went to Bais Yaakov. I have a friend though that is lubavitch and went to a Bais Yaakov and she said it made her appreciate being chabad so much more!

[n'eNow770]

wannabe, in the story u posted, they were changing their whole lives... That's a total difference! In my letter by the Ohel durring 22 Shvat, I said thank You for my chinuch, of being a Lubavitcher in a Bais Yaakov... It's like the Alter Rebbe says, in my Chassidiss i'm going the "long but short way" b/c even though it may take me 5 steps to reach something, verses one step for a girl in a Lubav school, it's more ingrained, and my appreciation runs high.