Learning girsa instead of iyun?

[wannabe]

A few years ago the Gerrer Rebbe issued a call to his Chassidim that bochurim should no longer learn iyun, but only girsa. He said that the fact of so many bochurim leaving Yeshivos is a result of learning iyun, and that by learning only girsa many bochurim will be saved (this is the way I heard it).

Many who heard this, myself included (and from what I heard many of the Gerrer rabonim and roshei yeshivos), were scandalized. How is it possible to not learn iyun, that is the center and mainstay of learning in Yeshiva.

And yet, I constantly meet our bochurim who are disillusioned with iyun. They can't see the point in it, and they have zero motivation for it, and feel no accomplishment or success in it. Some of those same bochurim do have a chayus in girsa.

Is it possible that for those bochurim learning girsa exclusively could be a plan? If you are a bochur, do you think it would work for you? If you are a mechanech, do you believe it could be sanctioned? Coud a Yeshiva have a two-tiered program, of iyun and girsa and only girsa? Can anyone offer other solutions? Or is the problem not as large as I imagine?

[Torah613]

I am neither a mechanech (BH!) nor a bochur (not for a while...), so take my 2 cents with a grain of salt.
There definitely is merit to the plan of some bochurim learning just girsa, but it can easily be abused by those trying to take the the "easy road".
In addition, there has to be some soul searching why a great many of our bochurim have no motivation for iyun or any other serious learning (besides "semicha" - if one considers that "serious"). I obviously have some thoughts on this issue, but I will be keep them to myself (for now), for fear of being labeled "negative"...

[LION]

First on a side note, it is rumored that there was a much "deeper" reason for this new takono of the gerer rebbe...

On the question itself, although I agree that there is some merit to this, I also feel that if this were to be made an official program [or the likes] it would be abused therefore maybe it is something that a teacher [vechdomo] can tell a specific student to do...VTI

[Torah613]

Lion, I didn't want to get into the first point you hinted at...

[zaraza]

Bichlal there is a problem in our yeshivas (mesivta/zal) that a lot of bachurim maybe even a majority can’t learn gemora so they go through yeshiva (up to 7 years) wasting year after year r”l.
Now as far as why we have this problem there are kama shitos. One is that when the kids start learning gemora in fourth grade they are never taught actually how to learn gemora. So after a while of not understanding they decide that they are not shayich to gemora so by the time they get to yeshiva they don’t even have the confidence to try (I believe that Rabbi Shain speaks about this) [in a way this is what happened to chassidus by a lot of bachurim which is why nowadays by a lot of people chassidus means a sicha of the Rebbe and maybe a maamar melukat if you want to go biyun].Another shita is that some bachurim are just not shayich to gemora and finished, maybe there needs to be two separate curriculums.
Void kama shitos...

Now if this is the cause of bachurim leaving yeshivos is also a discussion some taane yes and others say no-the reason is 1)the parents don’t raise their kids with proper hashkafos (frum/chassidish) and 2)the mechanchim cannot relate to the bachurim of today.

vten lechocham veyechkam oid...

[wannabe]

T613 and lion, now that you got us all curious could you at least give a hint?

[wannabe]

I obviously have some thoughts on this issue, but I will be keep them to myself (for now), for fear of being labeled "negative"...
You know we wouldn't dream of labelling you negative;) .

Seriously, I think that's the main question. zaraza offered 2 reasons, but I'd like to hear more.

About the danger you and lion mention of the program being abused, it's definitely a valid point (unless there are clearly defined guidelines to determine who goes into which program). But I just want to add: what I had in mind was primarily "zal" age (I don't think that in mesivta someone can be "written off" from iyun yet). Therefore it may be argued that if a bochur by the time he reaches zal is not interested in learning iyun (and would choose girsa because it's easier) then maybe that's the biggest indication that that's the group he belongs in?

Zaraza: the 2nd shita you mentioned, if you mean not shiyach academically, then that's a separate category, and those bochurim definitely need a separate program geared towards them. But if you mean not shyach in the sense that the bochurim I described in the question are not shyach, then - if I understand you correctly - according to the first shita a 2 - tiered program would be the wrong approach, because what is needed instead is just to teach bochurim how to learn gemoro, but acc. to the 2nd shita it would be the solution, so the diff. between the shitos is what the original question boils down to.

[Bittul]

In general, the Gerer (and Poilishe) Chasidim have always emphasized learning Gemara beshofi, for increased Yiras Shomayim.

You can't open a separate program for each individual child. A good Yeshivah will guide a talmid to learn at their pace (for example, they'll have a blat shiur during Iyun for the slower talmidim). There are other ways.

IMHO, a new program should be opened only if mixing the different types of kids (let's say, wild behavior or hands-on kids with learning and calm kids) will be destructive to the Yeshivah. Otherwise, keep them together and just let each develop l'fi darko.

[wannabe]

In general, the Gerer (and Poilishe) Chasidim have always emphasized learning Gemara beshofi, for increased Yiras Shomayim
True, but that was side by side with iyun (as is emphasized in the seforim of the rebbeim themselves -S"A and CH"H), and Ger was always able to boast of tremendous lomdim (kli chemda and pardes yosef come to mind, although dif. styles). The abolishing of iyun altogether seems like an unprecedented chidush.

[Torah613]

You know we wouldn't dream of labelling you negative;) .

Seriously, I think that's the main question. zaraza offered 2 reasons, but I'd like to hear more.
For some of my thoughts on this subject, see this thread http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=582 post # 7.

[Mekushar]

And yet, I constantly meet our bochurim who are disillusioned with iyun. They can't see the point in it, and they have zero motivation for it, and feel no accomplishment or success in it. Some of those same bochurim do have a chayus in girsa.I'm not a Mechanech or anything like that...simply your average Bochur, so I can't really stand behind what I say.

I think that another problem these days with Iyun is that it isn't being taught properly. When I talk to peers in other places I'm getting the impression that the learning is in an oifen of shitchiyus, very much like Girsah. i.e. One can also learn Gemarah Rashi Tosfos and Mefarshim the same way he learns Girsah, simply b/c he thinks that all there is to a mefoirash is, that according to the Rosh it's a Migu and the Ritva argues and holds that it's a Kal Vachoimar. This is very much like learning Shulchan Aruch, except for the fact that you aren't dealing with down-to-earth practical Halachois, simply what's the Halachah in a case of 2 wierdo's who are arguing so hard over a Tallis they find on the street.

When Bochurim learn this way, they feel that they aren't gaining anything "Mamashi", not covering any ground (after all come to think of it you spent 3 hours a day for 10 months on 10-15 Blatt!!!) which will cause him to lose his Choishek in learning. He would much rather feel like he's moving, covering round, accomplishing something to justify all those hours spent over a Gemarah.

MN!

[trancendant]

Firstly, lets see the results. did it work out for Ger? wat better way is there to get further insight on the matter.
Secondly, i heard that Ger keeps creating a new derech ha'limud - so this may well be a failed attemt already in the past.
Also, the type of girsa they learn (ALL poilishe yeshivos I believe) is that they spend much more time on the gemara itself (-not meforshim) so they have a very deep understanding of the gemara itself, using thier own brain. so it could be they spend much more time on it. thus, in contrast to Misnagdeshe Yeshivos, they KNO the gemara bef. they start jumping to R' Chaim - which neways is there only to clarify the gemara.

[stam a bachur]

we have to remember were dealing with tomchei tmimim here(most lubav. yeshivos would fall under that catagory even if theyre not called by that name)And every bachur was hand picked by the rebbe rashab,meaning that every bachur learning in t.t. has the koichos to live up to the seder set forth by the rebbe rashab and later modified by the friediker rebbe or the rebbe. when there seems to be a dis-intrest in iyun which I can also get pretty often, we dont think to change to girsa ,rather we try to find a better way to learn it.Either by getting better ramim or different gemara vchulu... But the seder is seder;we have iyun in the morning and girsa in the afternoon.

[dishmaster]

well then, there must be a solution to getting people interested...

[stam a bachur]

I think the problem actually starts in 8th grade or early mesivta where the bachurim are supposed to be taught how to learn gemara by themselves. By the time they come to zal most bachurim fit into two catagories: those who can learn and those who cant. Therefore, if a bachur has to learn iyun for three or four hours a day and he cant even learn a blat gemara by himself than of course he'll be dis-intersted. Iyun is not only meforshim and shiurim its knowing the gemara very well first and if that step is missing than he doesnt even know the gemara how can he be expected to like iyun or be interested in shiur?

[ShleimutHaaretz]

I heard that the Rebbe said that pirkei avot way of learning (5 - chumash; 10 - mishna; 15 - gemara) is correct. If so, why haven't any chabad yeshivot moved to the Barkai or Zilberman system of memorizing Tanach and mishnayot so that when kids are ready for gemara they have Tanach & mishna in their heads and know what was bothering the amoraim.
Kol v'chomer with learning b'iyun. Until one has mastered shas, why try to learn what was bothering the rishonim? (Even if it's a good idea to keep adults interested, why should high school students do so? Rav Furst of Cleveland wrote a letter blasting the iyun system as being responsible for bochurim not being able to learn of page of gemara on their own, since in all of high school they only covered 50 dafim. He said that if they would have covered 1000 pages b'girsa, they would have become able to learn on their own and then they would have continued learning after getting married instead of getting disillusioned by coming out of high school with no gemara skills and then never learning after leaving yeshiva. One of the chassidic rebbeim signed on as did many other litvish rabbonim.

[stam a bachur]

You have great ideas shleimut, but I think theres a reason we still have the system of iyun. The reason being that the rebbe wouldve changed the system if thats what the rebbe thought was necessery.Being that it was never changed thats good enough reason to keep the system the way it is. Its very nice that rabbi furst blasted the iyun system and that a chasidishe rabbi signed it,but here in lubavitch we have a rebbe who we follow.

[maspik!]

.1) How is it possible to not learn iyun, that is the center and mainstay of learning in Yeshiva.

2)And yet, I constantly meet our bochurim who are disillusioned with iyun. They can't see the point in it,

3)and they have zero motivation for it,

4) and feel no accomplishment or success in it.

5)Some of those same bochurim do have a chayus in girsa.

6)Is it possible that for those bochurim learning girsa exclusively could be a plan? If you are a bochur, do you think it would work for you?
7)If you are a mechanech, do you believe it could be sanctioned? Coud a Yeshiva have a two-tiered program, of iyun and girsa and only girsa?


1)what does does mainstay of learning in yeshiva mean?!
as far as i know iyun is essential to yidishkiet. its the main
chiyuv of limud hatorah. ubfrat what chassidus explains about iyun.

2) why dont you give them some mareh mekomos on the inyun ubfrat from chassidus

3) i think the lack of motovation comes fom laziness. or an unwillingness to hureve and really apply oneself- which could stem from side issues

4) its possible a bochur is discouraged from iyun because of experiencing failure like really working hard and coming out without anything solid to have satisfaction from (especially in a yeshiva where the iyun revolves around the shiur and he has difficulty folowing or enjoying)

5) girsa is a lot easier to muster a chayus for because you dont have to work hard or use too much concentration

6)NO!! of couse not. and i dont think its a question of can it work or not
thats irrelivent! iyun is a must just like tefilin

7)i dont think you yourself believe what you wrote. two-tiered program !?? get real!:confused:

[ShleimutHaaretz]

You have great ideas shleimut, but I think theres a reason we still have the system of iyun. The reason being that the rebbe wouldve changed the system if thats what the rebbe thought was necessery.Being that it was never changed thats good enough reason to keep the system the way it is. Its very nice that rabbi furst blasted the iyun system and that a chasidishe rabbi signed it,but here in lubavitch we have a rebbe who we follow.

The fact that the chabad schools have not taken on the Pirkei Avot system of learning, as the Rebbe called for, is in no way proof that the Rebbe "accepted" the status quo.
If only it were true that the system would have changed, "if thats what the rebbe thought was necessery."
Here's proof that there's no reiya in the way things are done:

The CH schools teach yiddish by translating chumash instead of using it conversationally - heifuch the Rebbe.
Advertisement of Noachide shiurim at batei chabad is non-existent - heifuch the Rebbe.
Rav Hollander, leader of the mi hu yehudi campaign in America, tried unsuccesfully to get chabadnikim to join the campaign in any way - heifuch the Rebbe.
No campaigns to stop the funding of the PLO and other enemies of EY by America were ever started by Chabad - heifuch the Rebbe.
No campaign to stop the use of birth control by goyim was ever started by Chabad - heifuch the Rebbe.
The Rebbe said we don't pasken like the gemarot which say that Moshiach can come from the non-living; the Rov of chabad in CH and EY pasken like those gemarot.
Shall I go on or can we just leave it with an understanding that the rebbe and the chassidim are two different things and the behavior of the chassidim is not always a reflection of the wishes of the rebbe (even if 90% of the time the chassidim do do a great job of following his wishes).

[shver]

im pretty sure * o.t. the teachers speak yiddish and you cant expect students to speak by themselves

[stam a bachur]

shleimut; Your going way off topic here. I was reffering to the yeshivah system which was followed according to the rebbe in most if not all places (such as seder chasidus starting at 8 on fridays, for an example) You are right that sadly sometimes the chasidim dont follow the rebbes full instructions, But in this case if the rebbe would have changed it it would have changed and if not in all yeshivas than surely in most. chasidim and rebbe 2 different things? From that statement you dont seem to be a lubavitcher chosid.

[ShleimutHaaretz]

But in this case if the rebbe would have changed it it would have changed and if not in all yeshivas than surely in most.
How can you look at all the examples I gave of Chabadnikim not following the rebbe's hora'ot and then say the above? If you want to prove what the rebbe wanted viz a viz chinuch, you'll have to do it from the rebbe's statements, not from what the chassidim are doing (unless you want to claim that the rebbe wanted the talking during tefilla to be so rampant that you can't even hear kedusha - after all, if the rebbe wanted it to be different he would have made it different, right?

chasidim and rebbe 2 different things? From that statement you dont seem to be a lubavitcher chosid.
What's your logic here? Because I notice that chassidim are doing these differently I'm not chabad? So the only way to be chabad is to put on dark glasses, not learn the teachings of the rebbe and assume that the chassidim are a mirror image of the rebbe's hitnahagut?

[Mekushar]

3) i think the lack of motivation comes fom laziness. Or an unwillingness to hureve and really apply oneself- which could stem from side issues. That can be true in many cases. However, there are many many cases of Bochurim who aren't lazy or unwilling to apply themselves, and yet don't derive any Geshmak from Iyun, which makes them disintrested in it after a while.

One of the main reasons is (LA"D), because they aren't being given a true Derech in Iyun from the Yeshivois. You can check out the thread "Yeshivah's not giving a Derech in Iyun" for more about this, and although I don't agree with many of the things there, there are unfortunately many things mentioned there that are very very true, and not much being done about them.

[stam a bachur]

shleimut; I thought the example i brought you about seder chasidus was a pretty good example of how the seder hayishivah changed by the rebbes instructions. Im not saying that everything the rebbe said chasidim should do they did, B/c than moshiach would be here b/c the rebbe said to "Do all we can do to bring moshiach". i was just saying that if the rebbe would say a clear horo'oh to change to girsa, it would be done in at least some yeshivas. on to your second quote, just b/c the chasidim unfortunaly dont always follow the rebbes horo'os it doesnt mean they're 2 seperate things. we are one with the rebbe but we can sometimes fail to do the rebbes instructions c'v once in a while.

[Bittul]

I heard that the Rebbe said that pirkei avot way of learning (5 - chumash; 10 - mishna; 15 - gemara) is correct.
This is completely incorrect.

[LavDavka]

How come the links never work? Like Torah613 (I'm dying to know his views).

But here's mine:

Bochurim don't like Iyun because they have no idea what to expect from it. There's no direction and therefore no accomplishment. It's like going somewhere without knowing where, and therefore you obviously never get there. The real wonder is on those who do have a geshmak in Iyun, although they're not going in any specific direction.

But if you want to change something, allow the bochurim to learn whatever they want, so long as they're learning. You cannot change the system, but if a bochur feels he wants to go through shas, don't stop him. The main thing is not what you learn but that you learn.

Accomodate everyone, that's my motto (if I have one).

[ShleimutHaaretz]

i was just saying that if the rebbe would say a clear horo'oh to change to girsa, it would be done in at least some yeshivas.

Maybe you're right, but I'd still like to know if the Rebbe ever said anything on this topic, rather than trying to learn out his shita from the way things are done.

just b/c the chasidim unfortunaly dont always follow the rebbes horo'os it doesnt mean they're 2 seperate things. we are one with the rebbe but we can sometimes fail to do the rebbes instructions c'v once in a while.
In some sense yes, but then again, there's that quote from Rebbetzin Chaya Moishka that her father had one chassid and her husband none.

[Torah613]

How come the links never work? Like Torah613 (I'm dying to know his views).
Glad to oblige:
Concerning the original question, why there seems to be a lack of “pure” learning in our circles, I have several thoughts about it which I will share in response to someone’s request (and please - I am not trying to offend anyone, and I am not naming names of Mosdos etc, but I think the problems have to be discussed openly and frankly).
[I just want to point out, that “of course” everybody “learns” Chitas, Rambam and Sotah (which in that itself I would ask: How many of us remember what the Rambam was about yesterday or today?!). How many learn it properly vs. just saying the words with barely thinking about the meaning etc? Most importantly - how many have a serious seder (in Mishna, Gemmoroh, Chassidus (besides the occasional sicha or Maamar), Halocho etc) outside of the above? How many are on track to fulfill the mitzva of TT as outlined in hil. TT of the AR? Lastly, how many of us will just “chap ah Gemoro” (or a different sefer), just for the pleasure of spending a few hours learning Hashem’s Torah? That is the problem we are discussing, and trying to understand the root of].
1) There is no “culture” of learning for the sake of learning. IOW, we are in a culture, where everything we are learning has to be “for a reason”, be it for Chitas Rambam, be it to fulfill the minhog brought in Hayom Yom for Sotah, be it to be yotseh the “inyon” of a YT Kislev mesechte. The inyon to learn just for the sake of learning - has been lost (or at least - is sorely lacking for the most part). For example: If you will go into shul Shabbos afternoon, and see a friend learning Gemoro (setting aside for now the so called “problem” of niglah on Shabbos…) - your reaction will be to figure out why “suddenly” is he learning (there is no seder now etc…) - is it a YTK mesechta, or a “iluy nishmas” mesechta, or chazoro for a test. If you will discover he is learning it just to get closer to finishing shas, the gut reaction in our circles will be, either “er iz a baal nigleh - feh!” (or even worse … a halber misnaged), or stam off his rocker…. except for “yechidei segulah” who it is there “job” to learn (RY’s, Rabbonim etc).
[The above may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much….].
2) There is no genuine koch in learning by the majority of bochurim. How many of you out there will be so involved in a sugya, that you will at night in your own time, spend time (- hours) trying to decipher that sugya (outside of trying to write a pilpul for a kovetz)? How many bochurim open up a sefer (besides Chitas and Rambam) Bein Hazmanim - unlike “bnei chomi” where you could go to many shuls/yeshivas in Boro Park during Chol Hamoed and find packed rooms with hundreds of bochurim sitting and learning during all hours of the day and night.
The same with Balei Batim - how many BB in CH will be found in front of an open sefer during Chol Hamoed - or for that matter any Sunday (when they are not working), rather than strolling into 770 any hour of the day and finding huge minyonim davvening shachris at weird hours, after the hachono rabosi of 2 hours discussing the latest scandal - politics - loshon horo etc. OTOH go to BP or Flatbush, find the lists of shiurim during CH with guest lecturers on all manners of topics, and see the turnout….
3) One of the root causes IMO - is that many of those that teach in our school system do not have a genuine geshmak in learning themselves, therefore how are they going to impart to children that which they themselves don’t have? In addition, many of them are genuine amei ho’oretz, who prepare a class with Soncino/Steinzaltz/Artscroll, and still don’t know the right pshat (even after teaching that Gemmoro for several years!) - how do you expect the students to look after learning from such “dugmah chayos”? If the teacher that is teaching them never learned as a bochur, never learned as a yungerman, never opens up a sefer if not preparing for an actual class, will never be seen by their students outside class time sitting and learning anything (or davvening bizman and with a minyon etc) - how will the student aquire the hergesh “az Torah iz di beste schorah” beyond being a fairy tale that was sung by their mother (if they were lucky)? The students will quickly pick up from such teachers what is really important and interesting… But I forget - these teachers give their students a good time - trips, prizes, contests etc. - abi nit lernen…
Then we wonder - where is the koch in learning? Where is the atmosphere of כי הם חיינו ואורך ימינו ובהם נהגה יומם ולילה ! Why can we walk into 770 Shabbos afternoon between Mincha and Maariv and see bli ayin horo 1500 people - sitting and talking instead of learning!
There is more to say on all this, but enough for now.
To add: When the above post was once posted, there were plenty "nitpickers" picking nits... :biggrin: , but I stand by the general point of this post (still!), and hopefully will not have to again defend the nits from being picked... :confused: :classic:

[Torah613]

First we have this:
I heard that the Rebbe said that pirkei avot way of learning (5 - chumash; 10 - mishna; 15 - gemara) is correct.
Then we have this:
The fact that the chabad schools have not taken on the Pirkei Avot system of learning, as the Rebbe called for, is in no way proof that the Rebbe "accepted" the status quo.
A simple suggestion: Before going on and on about how no one listens to the Rebbe (besides ...), with a list of examples (which many can be debated, VAKML), and the arichus hapilpul, can we first see where this “clear directive” is?

[ShleimutHaaretz]

can we first see where this “clear directive” is?

If I could remember where I heard that the Rebbe said that the Pirkei Avot way of learning is proper, I would have cited it. Since I can't, and I'm not sure it's correct (and I certainly didn't call it a "clear directive" of the rebbe), I specifically asked if anyone else can post anything the rebbe said about the topic. Nu?

[Torah613]

Then please don't attack everyone before you know there is what to attack for.

[ShleimutHaaretz]

Then please don't attack everyone before you know there is what to attack for.
I didn't attack anyone. I explained why it doesn't make sense to me to have 14 yr olds go through 15 rishonim on a sugya when they're only familiar with a handful of dafim of gemara and not at all familiar with the context of the posuk or the mishna that the sugya is based on, let alone with the other sugyot that the rishonim are trying to reconcile. I later explained why the way things are being done is not a raiya for the way the Rebbe wanted things done. So, again, in this whole thread there's no quote from the Rebbe - anyone have one?

[Torah613]

Fine, you didn't attack anyone. Whatever.

[Torah613]

I specifically asked if anyone else can post anything the rebbe said about the topic. Nu?I believe the letter printed in Igros v 13 p 231-2 (http://www.otzar770.com/library/display_page.asp?nPageNumber=232&cPartLetter=b&nBookId=48&refrashBookNav=Y) may have some relevance.

[Mekushar]

How come the links never work? Like Torah613 (I'm dying to know his views).

But here's mine:

Bochurim don't like Iyun because they have no idea what to expect from it. There's no direction and therefore no accomplishment. It's like going somewhere without knowing where, and therefore you obviously never get there. The real wonder is on those who do have a geshmak in Iyun, although they're not going in any specific direction.

But if you want to change something, allow the bochurim to learn whatever they want, so long as they're learning. You cannot change the system, but if a bochur feels he wants to go through shas, don't stop him. The main thing is not what you learn but that you learn.

Accomodate everyone, that's my motto (if I have one). What you are suggesting is perhaps a Mashpia's/Maggid Shiur's last resort, in dealing with the problem.

First of all, there are some Maggidei Shiurim out there who do indeed teach Iyun properly, and the Bochurim enjoy them very much. The truth is that I'm thinking of one specific case, but i do hope/feel that there are others who do likewise. Under these circumstances why is it a wonder that the Bochurim have a Geshmak in Iyun?

Second, when you allow a Bochur to go with the notion of "Do what you want, go throught Shas, as long as you are learning", He will never get anywhere. He is NOT coming to Yeshivah to learn through Shas, and he will not gain alot by doing so either. If the main thing is "that you learn", you will never be able to properly learn a Rishoin or Acharoin. When the day comes and your son will ask you a question in a Mefoirash, what can you say other than "I just learnt in Yeshivah, I never really learnt how to learn on my own..."

[LavDavka]

1. I can think of two Maggidei Shiurim in Lubavitch who give a half decent derech (and geshmak) in Iyun. I posted elsewhere on this subject.

2. I was building on those who said not to change anything in Mesivta. By the time a bochur comes to zal, it should be obvious if he is up to learning Iyun or not. Besides that, nobody is suggesting to the bochur to learn something else. The idea is that if the Mashgiach "catches" him doing so, he should allow it, so long as the bochur's learning.

3. Do you value an embarrassing inability to answer a child's question over the Mitzvah of learning itself? You would rather have bochurim wasting time because they are not interested in learning, as long as they can answer their children's questions on meforshim? In the classical S"A that most people own, a child's question does not serve as the basis of Halacha or Jewish practice.
Besides which, the answer to your child's question is all too simple. The Mitzvah of learning says one should learn. If a person doesn't have the ability (for whatever reason) to learn the meforshim, than it's better to learn without meforshim, wouldn't you say? If someone can't say that to his child in a positive way, let him retire.

[zaraza]

I don't know why it was decided that when children begin learning Gemora (at ten years old) they start with Elu Metziu, Hamafkid vchu' and not more simple Gemoras ie. Brachos. At the age of ten a child is supposed to [start] to master the Gemora which is 1)in a foreign language and 2)an extremely complicated way of learning (with sevaros back and forth vchu') and is made to think of himself as a failure if he cannot comprehend it.
In my opinion, what happans many times is that the child will automatically block himself out of Gemora, convinced that he is not shayich to it;and any attempt to learn Gemora later on in Mesivta or Zal will be pi kama harder for him [kiyadua ligdoley hamechanchim, kol chochmas hacognitive vedal]

[Torah613]

zaraza, look at the link I posted in post # 34.

[ShleimutHaaretz]

I believe the letter printed in Igros v 13 p 231-2 (http://www.otzar770.com/library/display_page.asp?nPageNumber=232&cPartLetter=b&nBookId=48&refrashBookNav=Y) may have some relevance.

That letter does not seem to say anything definitive on the issue of whether to return to the Mishna's way of learning (putting off analysis/gemara until age 15). It seems to me be saying that when learning, there's no set order of what to learn within that sphere of what's already chosen (i.e., if you're learnnig chumash, you don't need to start with B'reishit). But it doesn't say anything about which geder of limud to start at particular any particular age.

If anyone has seen anything from the rebbe discussing which age at which to start various types of learning, I'd like to see it.

[Of course, this would only be regarding limud in EY, as the the Mishna/Zilberman method of learning would never work in this generation in a non-hebrew speaking environment].

[Torah613]

That minhog yisroel that the Rebbe is referring to in that letter happens to consist of starting to learn Hamafkid and Hamaniach - with children...not 15 year olds.
IOW the Rebbe is endorsing the traditional "non-logical" way of learning.
Therefore I believe there is some relevance to the discussion.

[ShleimutHaaretz]

That minhog yisroel that the Rebbe is referring to in that letter happens to consist of starting to learn Hamafkid and Hamaniach - with children...not 15 year olds.
IOW the Rebbe is endorsing the traditional "non-logical" way of learning.
Therefore I believe there is some relevance to the discussion.

Again, the Rebbe is discussing the order of learning within one geder of learning. He's not addressing the subject of which age to start each geder.

[Torah613]

Again - that is the minhog he was referring to (there is no "minhog" to start hamafkid with 15 year olds...). If the whole minhog is krum - how does one bring a proof from a detail of a "wrong" minhog?

[TzivosHashem]

We still didnt hear what the Gerrer Rebbe's 'deeper' reason for the takonoh was.

[ShleimutHaaretz]

Again - that is the minhog he was referring to (there is no "minhog" to start hamafkid with 15 year olds...). If the whole minhog is krum - how does one bring a proof from a detail of a "wrong" minhog?

I would still like to see something directly on the subject. It certainly seems that the ideal way of learning is the way the mishna set it up, with lots of memorizaton (while he's still good at memorizing) of Tanach and Misnhayot until 15, so that when a kid finally is old enough to analyze, he's got a computer in his head of all the things from Tanach and mishna that are being discussed by the amoraim.

If we had to go away from that ideal way (to fight the maskilim who overemphasized nach and de-emphasized halacha/gemara or because kids in recent generations lost the ability to memorize large chunks of material in a foreign language), it doesn't make sense to continue avoiding what the mishna says is the ideal way once it's possible again, as proven by the Zilberman schools in EY. That system is sweeping EY and, logically at least, is should only be a matter of time before Chabad takes it on.

If not, Chabadnikim with smicha who don't know what happened in Shoftim will be bumping into Zilberman guys who can rattle off all of Tanach and mishnayot and have learned shas by 18.

[Torah613]

We still didnt hear what the Gerrer Rebbe's 'deeper' reason for the takonoh was..... because this isn't the place to delve into the intricacies of Gerer politics...

[Torah613]

That system is sweeping EY and, logically at least, is should only be a matter of time before Chabad takes it on. Sweeping??
If not, Chabadnikim with smicha who don't know what happened in Shoftim will be bumping into Zilberman guys who can rattle off all of Tanach and mishnayot and have learned shas by 18.Unfortunately, one doesn't need Zilberman guys to expose this type of problem...

[shalomaleichem]

I would still like to see something directly on the subject. It certainly seems that the ideal way of learning is the way the mishna set it up, with lots of memorizaton (while he's still good at memorizing) of Tanach and Misnhayot until 15, so that when a kid finally is old enough to analyze, he's got a computer in his head of all the things from Tanach and mishna that are being discussed by the amoraim.

If we had to go away from that ideal way (to fight the maskilim who overemphasized nach and de-emphasized halacha/gemara or because kids in recent generations lost the ability to memorize large chunks of material in a foreign language), it doesn't make sense to continue avoiding what the mishna says is the ideal way once it's possible again, as proven by the Zilberman schools in EY. That system is sweeping EY and, logically at least, is should only be a matter of time before Chabad takes it on.

If not, Chabadnikim with smicha who don't know what happened in Shoftim will be bumping into Zilberman guys who can rattle off all of Tanach and mishnayot and have learned shas by 18.

Zilberman has a bigger drop out problem than any standard TT.

R' Yishiahu Weber, a knowledgeable and sometimes controversial Chabad mechanech in Y-m, proves that a shita like Zilberman exacerbates the problem. As a mechanech, it is obvious that a child loses taam for learning that is so difficult that it becomes tedious instead of fulfilling. To learn gemora a child needs to acquire certain skills. You can get to 8th grade in Zilberman not knowing how to read! I've witnessed this with my own eyes. A child needs reading/language skills, comprehension, Ikar/ tefel, context and analytical thinking. Zilberman weakens all of these skills by total lack of use for 8 years.

The proper answer is for mechanchim to put the emphasis from the earliest age at developing these 5 skills that will facilitate learning gemoro. If a bachur is good at it and is reinforced, then he will like learning gemora.

Zilberman holds that you just do shinun w/o any need to understand. They also are very anti-meforshim, allowing the teacher to put whatever he sees fit in the child's head.

They won't learn shas by 18 because they aren't allowed to start until 15 and most of them (in Israel) have dropped out of school by then. In addition, they don't have yeshivas and their bachurim can't go to mizrochnik yeshiva because they have no limudei chol and they can't go to a regular yeshiva because they don't have gemora.