Dealing with our past

[Jude]

A very relevant issue for baalei teshuva, gerim, and anybody who is electing to live their lives differently from the way they were raised, is how to deal with their past.

We know from sichos on chinuch, how very critical our youngest years are, in forming who we are today. This issue then becomes, what if our upbringing was not optimal? What if our habits and ideas are not in consonance with the Torah's? How do we make the adjustment?

A question that many baalei teshuva have to deal with is dealt with in two contrary ways:

1) some advise bt's to chuck their past; it was secular and no-good, so drop it
2) others say, the past is what made you who you are today, you can't chuck it even if you want to; you've got to build on it

the latter seems more reasonable, but here too there are two approaches:

1) those who advocate a kind of hybrid of the secular past and frum present, you know - keep the old goyish music tapes, books, way of talking etc. while taking on mitzvos

2) the Rebbe's way - reject the goyishkeit of the past, but USE it in a positive way. For example, in answer as to how to rectify one's having eaten treif, the Rebbe says: go out and teach others about kashrus, because hearing it from someone who gave up tarfus will make a powerful impact.

[noahidelaws]

BS"D See Tanya chapter 7 where it is explained that the advantage of a BT is that since he has been further away, he has an intense desire and drive to come close that the non-sinner lacks. This is what teshuva is all about. But if the person retain various aspects of his former secular life, it is questionable if he really thinks that where he was is far away. I.e., has he really done teshuva?

True, there are some BT's who did all kinds of unprintable things and others (though they are becoming more and more rare) who lived pretty traditional, decent lives. But any non-Torah lifestyle is incomparable to Torah, if you realise all that Torah really demands.

[Yehudiya]

WE are all B.T.'s (at least we are supposed to be)
so in my humble opinion we should all be working on the future and not concentrating on the past.

[Jude]

Although you have to keep moving forward, there is no question that with or without "concentration," the past is very much present!
Here's an example. A very new B.T. who loves Yiddishkeit called me and asked me whether it's true that the halacha says if you get extra change or the like from a goy, you don't have to return it, but you do have to return it to a Jew. When I said, yes, that's true, the response was: That's disgusting!. That's a double standard! We are all G-d's children!
So I told her, no, only Jews are G-d's children, but goyim and the rest of the world are G-d's creations, and yes, we are encouraged to make a kiddush Hashem by returning money, even if we are not required to.

The point I'm bringing out with this incident is, here's someone who loves Shabbos, a Jewish home etc. but they have a looong way to go before their former ideas are supplanted with Torah ideas.

[Yehudiya]

I have astounding news for you Jude - even ffb's have a long way to go until they (they?we!) are firmly rooted within the Torah's way s.

[Jude]

I am an FFB, and the only reason I can think of for my not being as firmly rooted in the Torah's ways as I should be, is because my chinuch was not al taharas ha'kodesh, i.e. absolutely Torah only with no secular influences.

[Jac]

Jude, in this world it would be difficult to find a single person who has not at all been influenced by secular influences. So I don't know that that 'excuses' away the fact that a person may not be firmly rooted in torah.

<<WE are all B.T.'s (at least we are supposed to be) >>

I agree with Yehudiya. When I first read the beginning of the thread, I too thought: why are we wondering only about BT's dealing with their pasts? We are all "BT's" and we all have pasts to deal with--on various levels, but it's there for everyone.

[ChachChach]

<<The point I'm bringing out with this incident is, here's someone who loves Shabbos, a Jewish home etc. but they have a looong way to go before their former ideas are supplanted with Torah ideas>>

so let me see it from their perspective...hmmm...according to this:

if you're not religous, you think its wrong to cheat ppl
but
become religous, and its okay to cheat certain ppl, after all, they're "goyim"...

[Jude]

Jac: << When I first read the beginning of the thread, I too thought: why are we wondering only about BT's dealing with their pasts? >>

why did you wonder that when my very first sentence included BT's, gerim, and anybody choosing to live their lives differently etc. !

and yes, this issue is most relevant to BT's, because (there are simply far fewer gerim than BT's, though the issues can be the same or similar), they make the most drastic changes. Already frum people who move to the 'right' have similar issues to BT's but they are usually not as pronounced.

Chach: what I explained to her was, the real question is, is the Torah divine and is G-d good and just. If that is your premise, then everything else follows, and yes, there will be mystifying elements in Torah. So goes it ..

[Jac]

Jude, I was merely pointing out that the average, run of the mill frum, Lubavitch Jew didn't seem to be included in the discussion, and that every person really is a BT in their own way and has to deal with their past. Yes, of course, it's on an entirely different level than a BT. I was just making an observation.

[noahidelaws]

BS"D <<if you're not religous, you think its wrong to cheat ppl
but
become religous, and its okay to cheat certain ppl, after all, they're "goyim"...>>

Anyone who is asked such a question should have the brains to thouroughly explain the difference between strict Halocho i.e. what is legal and middas Chassidus, kadeish atsmecho be'mutar loch i.e. what is moral. And I have no doubt that Jude did just that!

<<the average, run of the mill frum, Lubavitch Jew >> I have yet to meet such a person :D

[Jude]

B'H I had the brains to explain that no, you don't have to return it, but yes, we are encouraged to make a kiddush Hashem.

about this thread:
yes, we are all required to improve and grow
however, the point of this thread is to address the issues of those who have made more extreme life changes and are dealing with:
1) parents and family members who:

may not approve of their grandchildren's not getting any limudei chol
may not eat chalav Yisrael or kosher at all
may have negative ideas about Chassidus, the Rebbe, Moshiach..
may have books, videos, TV in their homes which pose problems for visiting family members
etc.

2) ghosts from the past like former marriages, former intimate relationships, former drug/alcohol use

3) attachments to aspects of their previous lifestyles like the music, reading matter, goals, and ideas

[Jac]

Okay, thanks for clarifying, Jude. (Though judging from some posts on the site, I can imagine a frum Jew also having to deal with wrong things of his past--ex, music, books, goals, ideals, etc. But I understand what you're saying :).)

[noahidelaws]

BS"D This may be relevant here:
The Rebbe Writes
Erev Shavuos, 5716 [1956]

Sholom U'Brocho [Peace and Blessing]:

In reply to your (undated) letter, you should bear in mind the following points:

A. There can be no question but that Teshuvo [repentance] is effective in every case, and whatever the transgression, for Teshuvo is one of G-d's commandments, and G-d does not require of us the impossible.

B. It is likewise certain that any kind of depression, despondency or sadness, is a trick of the Yetzer Horah [evil inclination] to discourage one from serving G-d, as is explained at length in the books of Mussar, and in the books of Chasidus; and you would do well to refer to Tanya, ch. 26 and further.

C. Even where one has relapsed in committing the same transgression for which one has done Teshuvo, and, moreover, even while doing Teshuvo one is not certain whether he could resist the temptation should it recur, this must in no way prevent him from studying the Torah and observing its Mitzvos [comandments], included among which is also the Mitzvah [commandment] of Teshuvo, for every action of man has its repercussions both down here below and Above, and you surely know the saying of our Sages: "No transgression extinguishes a Mitzvah," (even though it extinguishes the reward of a Mitzvah). I refer you again to Iggeres Hateshuvo (part III of the Tanya), ch. 11.

I advise you from now on to stop weighing and dwelling on things which are of no practical value, and especially the kind of thought that only leads to despondency, but concentrate ever growing efforts on Torah and Mitzvos.

I wish you to celebrate the Festival of Our Receiving the Torah with inner and lasting joy,

With Blessing

[ChachChach]

You know what I love about the Rebbe's responses? They're always so positive=they're always so full of encouragement, and most importantly, they always tell the person to stop letting the past or future weigh down your present actions-if you worry too much, you're going to end up losing out on present mitzvos too:)

[walter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jude
[B] We are all G-d's children!
So I told her, no, only Jews are G-d's children

Jude, I firmly believe this is but one of many laws that will be omitted when Moshiach comes. May he come quickly.
Shalom

[ChachChach]

What do you mean by that?

[walter]

Originally posted by ChachChach
What do you mean by that?

Ba ha sefer Shemot, "Ki Y--- Eloheim
ha Elohei ha Elohim
v'Adonai ha Adonim
ha El
haGadol
haNorah
asher lo yisah panim."

HaShem is G-d of G-ds and L-rd of L-rds the Great and Awful.., "does not lift His face to see who he is speaking to." He is the respecter of no person. He treats all equally. Again he says, " Love the stranger" If haShem does not lift His face but treats all equally we are all indeed His children.
Shalom

[walter]

Although we are all his children.., Yisrael is His firstborn. It is written, " Thus says the L-RD, Yisrael is my son, my firstborn.

[ChachChach]

I still dont understand what you're trying to say.

What do you mean that when Moshiach comes, there will be corrections?

[walter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jude
A very new B.T. who loves Yiddishkeit called me and asked me whether it's true that the halacha says if you get extra change or the like from a goy, you don't have to return it, but you do have to return it to a Jew. When I said, yes, that's true, the response was: That's disgusting!. That's a double standard! We are all G-d's children!

ChachChach.., I'm responding to Jude's quote. I believe the young lady is correct. i.e.., "we are all G-d's children." Certainly Yisrael is His firstborn.., but all are his children. There has been some seemingly hateful things written that's hard to understand. When Moshiach comes everything and everyone will experience correction/tikun. There will be no negative precepts.., only positive in Olam haba.

[bocaj]

Just happened to come to this thread and saw jude's post re not returning excess "'change" to goy. If you answered the way you wrote then the BT was rightly disgusted! You are obviously not aware of the halachic rules which make it clear that it is not at all as simple as you make it out. See Choshen Mishpat 348:2 and the commentaries there; also Choshen mishpot 359! Never mind even what is stated still sharper in later teshuvois. "Chachomim" hisoharu bedivreichem!

[Jude]

I actually verified what I said with someone knowledgeable. Would you explain what you mean?

[noahidelaws]

BS"D Maybe this matter ought to be raised in the appropriate thread :rolleyes: :D

[bocaj]

Jude, I couldn't be clearer than I was by giving you exact references to check. zil gemor.

[Jude]

the references you gave concerned STEALING, which you may not do, whether the person is a Jew or a gentile
the situation I described had NOTHING to do with stealing

[walter]

Originally posted by Jude
the references you gave concerned STEALING, which you may not do, whether the person is a Jew or a gentile
the situation I described had NOTHING to do with stealing

Jude.., If a gentile gave you more change than you were intitled.., and if you knew of the mistake but didn't return the money.., Wouldn't this be condsidered stealing? :ponder:

[bocaj]

Jude, obviously you did not look at the sources, or did so superficially. They DO talk about extra change etc.

[Yankel Nosson]

This seems like the right thread to raise this issue:

What is the proper way for a BT to deal with old photographs and diaries? Assuming such things are kept in a closet or under a bed, should they be discarded as relics of "someone else's life" or should they be preserved as a benchmark of how far a person has come?

Particularly of interest is what advice anyone has received from trustworthy mashpiim in this regard.

[hishtatchus]

Are the ideas therein "Pareve"? Or are they things that are obviously not appropriate for Chassidim?

[Yankel Nosson]

Are the ideas therein "Pareve"?
Let's say most likely narishkeit.