Shmitta without Yovel -- miscount?

[Yankel Nosson]

We keep shmitta every seven years, but we do not keep Yovel since the churban. Does this means that our shmita cycle is out of synch with the supernal cycle?

Meaning, we would count shmitta in the years

07 14 21 28 35 42 49 56 63

If there was a Yovel, the count would be:

07 14 21 28 35 42 49 50-Yovel 57 64

In other words, we jump ahead by one year every fifty. Is this mentioned anywhere in seforim?

[hubdirenbud]

Yes there is a entire sicha about this in Chailek 7 parshas i think bihar sicha 2, it is a chasiddus sicha and not so easy to understand well, but what it come out from there that now a days we count it with out the yovel meaning 07 14 21 28 35 42 49 56 63

[Torah613]

Since today halachikly there is no yovel today, therefore you are correct - the calculation is different than if there would be yovel.
I just don't know what you mean by "supernal cycle"?

[Yankel Nosson]

I just don't know what you mean by "supernal cycle"?Did I write that?

I was implying "lemailah".

Along the lines of korbanos--we don't have them down here right now, but they never stopped in the "supernal realms". Similarly while we lost Yovel down here, perhaps it still occurs lemailah.

Thanks hubdirenbud, I'll check out that sicha (Behar sicha 1) :vodka:

[hubdirenbud]

and by the way yovel stoped before the churban it stoped when the 3 shivutim where exiled, this being b\c the din is that all the yidden have to live in eretz yisroel in order to count the yoval

[Yankel Nosson]

Alas in Yiddish, but I found a worked over version from Meaningful Life Center
Three States of Jubilee
The shemitta/yovel cycle itself comes in three different forms, as dictated by the variant spiritual climates of different epochs in our history.

The Torah instructs that the Jubilee year is to be proclaimed “throughout the land and to all inhabitants thereof.” The Talmud interprets this as a stipulation that the special laws of the 50th year are enacted only when the land of Israel is fully populated by the Jewish people. The only period in our history when this was the case was from the year 2503 from creation (1258 BCE), when the Jewish people under Joshua completed their conquest and settlement of the Holy Land, until they were driven from it by Babylon’s armies 836 years later, with the destruction of the First Temple in the year 3339 (422 bce).

Seventy-six years later, with the partial return of the Jewish people to their land under Ezra (six years after the building of the Second Temple) the yovel count resumed—but this time only for the sake of calculating and implementing the sabbatical year seven times in each 50-year period. Since much of the Holy Land was not resettled, and a large part of the Jewish nation remained in exile, the Jubilee year could not be observed. Nevertheless, a fiftieth year was counted following each seven shemittah-cycles, “so that the sabbatical years should fall at their proper time.” [Rashi on Erchin 32b] In other words, after the seventh sabbatical year, on year 49, of Ezra’s count, the next seven-year cycle could not begin until after a theoretical Jubilee was proclaimed; thus, the next sabbatical year came eight years later (on year 57), not seven years later (on year 56).

Upon the Second Temple’s destruction in the year 3829 from creation (69 CE), this yovel count also ceased. The sabbatical year continues to be observed every seventh year (5754 (1994) was a shemittah year); but because we are in a state of galut (exile), deprived of the divine presence that manifested itself in the Holy Temple, we lack even the “theoretical” Jubilee of the Second Temple Era. Today (as was the case in the period between the two Temples), our seven-year cycles run consecutively, without the half-century landmark of yovel.

http://www.meaningfullife.com/torah/parsha/vayikra/bechukotai/The_Eighth_Dimension.php
So the answer to my question, as per Rashi, is that our Shmitta years are not at their proper time. (Footnote 38 to the sicha explains that "the level of Yovel (alma d'chiru) does not illuminate now at all")

[Torah613]

I don't see that at all.

[Yankel Nosson]

I don't see that at all.Then how do you understand that Rashi?

[Torah613]

Did you see the sugya (and that Rashi) inside?

[Yankel Nosson]

Did you see the sugya (and that Rashi) inside?
No. When I have a chance, imy"h.

[Torah613]

We'll (maybe) discuss it then. You may also want to look in Encyclopedia Talmudis under "Yovel".

[Yankel Nosson]

I looked up the gemara, the Rashi, and even the Artscroll pshat. I don't see what your objection is -- please explain.

[Torah613]

Simply that there is a machlokes whether yovel is a seperate year or not. If it is so you have to count yovel as a seperate year even when we don't keep yovel to keep the calculation of shmitta correct - which is the opinion rashi was explaining.
According to other opinions (in the gemoro) shmitta is correct even without calculating the theoretical year of yovel, since the year of yovel (according to them) isn't a seperate year - but the first year of the cycle.
Our counting not to calculate yovel is based on the tradition of the "Geonim" that we don't calculate yovel. There are many ways to explain this tradition - see the aforementioned Encyclopedia (v 22 p 120 ff), Rambam etc. In other words - it is a clear issue in psak halocho.
To say based on this, that our shmitta "is not in the proper time", or "out of synch", I don't think is correct, and I don't see how such an idea is borne out by that sicha.

[Chaim J]

and by the way yovel stoped before the churban it stoped when the 3 shivutim where exiled, this being b\c the din is that all the yidden have to live in eretz yisroel in order to count the yoval

Yoval stopped being observed then. But as the sicha explains during Bayis Sheni The yoval was used to count the shmitta (ie 7 X 7 then one year yoval and then 7 X 7) but the halachos of yoval were not observed.

Note this was after the galus after Bayis Rishon where Yoval was not counted at all. So it seems that the fact we dont count yoval today does not mean we are out of sync!!!

Learn the Sicha - Geshmak!!!

[Yankel Nosson]

The MR writes in Shaarei Tshuva about the inyan of Yovel, and states "lo naicha d'yovla ila'a sh'lo yeatzev l'olam" -- the supernal Yovel never ceased. During the time of Bayis Sheini the hasaga of this level was lost, but there was still a shaychus to it (ois vov of the Rebbe's sicha, if I can make out the Yiddish) therefore it was counted as a zecher, though not observed. Following chorban bayis sheini, footnote 38 explains that there wasn't even a zecher made for it because the level of Yovel "eino meir achshav klal."

In other words, there is bchinas Yovel lemailah with which we are "out of synch" because it is "eino meir achshav klal."

[Torah613]

So our year of shmitta is not the year of shmitta lemailah?!

[Yankel Nosson]

So our year of shmitta is not the year of shmitta lemailah?!Upon reflection, it would seem that shmitta/yovel is akin to Shavuos not Shabbos or other Yomim Tovim.

Based on the dates in the article previously referenced, it would seem that Ezra did not resume the counting to be in synch with the pre-churban sequence, but rather started afresh from his own year one. Thus, the gilui of Yovel would not be like Pesach, for example, which is "mischadesh ha'hashpa'a" of the original Pesach every Tes-Vov Nissan. Rather, Yovel seemingly would be analgous to Shavuos, which can be on 5/6/7 Sivan based on our own counting.

Or it could be analogous to Rosh Chodesh, that lemailah is dependent upon lemattah.

[Torah613]

Exactly my point.