Faking it

[n'eNow]

There are many girls in my school who are labled "fakers". what this means is in school they act very chassidish.. chitas, tznius, involved in school... but when the summer time comes or at home they act a different way. They watch movies, talk to guys, and dont dress how they normally would.
People think they are amazing chassidish girls meanwhile the girls that everyone knows watches movies, listens to non-jeiwsh music they think much lower of them when in truth, the "fakers" are the ones that do worse things. Is it good to expose what you do or is it better to fake? Faking sometimes leads to actually doing it but usually you just end up lying to yourself.

[duddet]

i think it is better to be yourself. because then when you do something that is right you know that you are doing it because you want to not because you are trying to impress anyone else. also it could be that these girls are saying chitas because they really want to. maybe they are having a difficult time with guys and non-jewish music and movies but they are trying to be better and feel that they are not ready to work on the other things but chitas means something to them or davening means something to them and so they are first working on that.

[n'eNow]

yeah i see what ur saying but these girls will tell other girls what they are doing is wrong when they themselves are doing it. These girls out of school wouldnt say their chitas or daven so it doesnt mean much to them in that case. Being yourself would mean to show everyone that you do things you shouldnt be. I mean like how can you be yourself when in public you arent doing things you would do - being yourself?

[hishtatchus]

Fake it till you make it!

It's good that at least they do the right things in school- maybe that's the way they really want to be, but at home or in the summer they have a much bigger Yetzer Hara.

There's a story about a Chossid who was a businessman. He had to dress modern for the purposes of Parnasa, but whenever he went to his Rebbe he'd put on a Kapote. Once he asked himself, "Why are you trying to fool the Rebbe?" So the next time he went, he decided to wear a short jacket, like he'd dress at work. The Rebbe was very disappointed. "The whole time I thought that you wear the short jacket to fool the world, that the real you wears a Kapote..."

[n'eNow770]

Hisht, i really like that story...thats a very amazing message.
I think that most girls act differently in school vs. at home. The key is to try and do the best you can at all times-sometimes even when it's not you-the reason for this is that no one wants to be a hypocrite, so they eventually go one way, and generally they go the right way. If you do it by habit, you'll eventually do it b/c u want to iy"H. Just we have to remember not to make others victims of this. We cannot become "self-righteous" b/c of it...

[roza]

fake it for the shidduch sake.

[hope2beAbochur]

not just girls, what about boys, i am scared for when i go to yeshiva because where i live i am looked upon as the "religious one" because there are few religious boys of my age where i live and i think it will be a shock when i go to yeshiva what it is like to be a "real" lubavitcher, because i don't live in a very chassidishe atmosphere in my home town.

[roza]

the reason i said for shidduch sake:

few ppl called about girls (for shidduch) who were here as camp counselors. They did not ask if the girl was kind, considered, helpful, selfish, good natured, moody or not and so on. But they asked me if they daven, do chitas, have slits, tznius, chassidish,shlichus oriented and so on.

[bachurette]

[QUOTE=roza]the reason i said for shidduch sake:

so in that case the Shidduch is based all faking? i don't get that!
just be real! aim high, but for yourself, not for your rep. cuz that way it stays, even when no-one's around to be in awe of your hour-long shmone esrei!
if it's all for a Shidduch, do you want him to marry you based on something you're not?
though there's the story of- I think it's R' Yehudah Hanasai- who gave his students a bracha that their fear of Hashem should be as great as that of another human being.

[roza]

if it's all for a Shidduch, do you want him to marry you based on something you're not?

FYI, i am B"H happily married :classic: and i was picked by a shadchan for being chassidish, doing chitas, davening and not wearing slits. :cool:

[yaldah613]

These girls out of school wouldnt say their chitas or daven so it doesnt mean much to them in that case.

That might not be true. Some girls really need to be pushed into something to do it and then they'll do it. For example, I know a girl in my grade (i go to a modern orthodox school) who won't daven at home because it's too hard, takes too much time, whatever. (she also usually wont daven at school because it's a rule that you have to daven, so she wants to be rebellious...) The other day she wanted to borrow money but I told her that I had money but I needed it. Then she had an idea (she knows that I am constantly encouraging her to daven) she said "If I daven will you give me $2? I said OK but don't do it for the money. (BTW, I'd like your responses on this. Do you think it was the right thing to do?) So she davened and when I gave her the money she said "I'll pay you back." This girl is very rebellious and doesn't daven when teachers tell her to, but she (or maybe her neshama if she won't admit it) is looking for an excuse to daven. At the time while she was davening she may have been very 'into it' and it may have meant a lot to her- I don't know. Sure if davening REALLY meant a lot to her she would make it a priority, but it could still mean something to her and she won't daven for varoous reasons.

Wow, that was long and sortof roundabout answer...:smile:

[yaldah613]

I also don't think 'fakers' is the right term. They could just be people "working on themselves but find it easier to be more chassidish when they have other people encouraging/watching/judging them"

[Chassidic1]

B"H
16, Sivan, 5765

Did you consider the possibility that when these girls are behaving they are acting truthfully, and that there misbehavior is actually a deviation from their true nature as Jews? This is the view which it seems the Alter Rebbe takes in Tanya.

I think the main thing is just to work on improving yourself in this area - living a life consistent with the teachings of Chassidus. This will set the example for others, who will admire and by extension seek to mimic your behavior.

[hope18]

really who u kidding!

u know what this world has gone crazy! straight up

[n'eNow770]

I have girls in my school who at first i couldn't stand. They seemed to be faking everything just to fit in. Their Tznius, their talk, their everything, even do Chesed... But then, they started doing it outside of school to. And it grew and grew, and these girls are some of the most amazing girls in my school, and they truely do it from their heart NOW. I feel so bad that i was so judgemental before, b/c really they are so special for having grown so much.

[mcp]

Everyone is a hypocrite. Everyone picks and chooses certain areas that they are more careful in or less careful in. Adults, children, chassidim, Conservative, etc. People keep strict kashrus but feel free to talk loshon hora. People keep pas yisroel but skip kemach yoshon. People eat nothing manufactured on Pesach but cheat on their taxes by taking jobs that "pay under the table". People consider slits to be ossur min hatorah but forget about al todin es chavercho ad shetogia lemekomo. People are makpid on saying chitas but then waste time ( bittul torah) while on the internet in Jewish forums. This is not to criticize at all- just pointing out that no one can be a malach and everyone choose certain areas to be more strict and more lax in. That is also a form of hypocrisy.

[Meshulam]

MCP- Your comments are indicative of a simple world view. Furthermore, they're incorrect. Choosing to be strict in one area and lenient in another area is called setting priorities, not hypocrisy. Now, someone who claims to keep all of Torah, and to be holier than thou, but who cheats on his taxes is, indeed, a hypocrite.

However, someone who keeps yoshon very strictly, but who talks loshon haro is not necessarily a hypocrite, in that there is no contradiction. We all try our best to keep Torah (well, not all, but many of us). Much of the time we are successful; some of the time we fail. But those failures aren't to be understood as hypocrisy unless those failures specifically are in contrast to a claim that we have made.

For example, a xxxtian minister who rails against the liberal agenda, and secretly tells his wife to have an abortion - He is a hypocrite. But, if that person told his congregation to avoid laziness, and after his speech, he lies to someone about something... that doesn't constitute hypocrisy. It constitutes human failure.

You can't just throw around terms. Words mean things.

[mcp]

Meshulam- According to your explanation, hypocrisy only applies if you are actually doing that which you publicly rail against. I think it can be used as a wider term- being super makpid in one area and not so careful in another one. Like if a person is super strict about hilchos shabbos but watches x-rated movies motzei shabbos, many would call him a hypocrite even though those two things are not related. That said, I agree with you that hypocrisy is just another manifestation of human failure. Again, I am not a bitter person going off on hypocrisy in the orthodox community- I am just pointing out that everyone does this- whatever you choose to call it - it is just a spectrum from "choosing priorities" to "being a full blown hypocrite" and it is all part of being human. I do not understand why you think it's necessary to insist that my views are "simple" or "incorrect".

[Meshulam]

I think they are simple because you said "everyone is a hypocrite." That's a simplification. I think they are incorrect because you don't seem to be using the word hypocrite according to its definition.

The definition of hypocrisy is: "The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess." In other words, saying one thing and doing another.

Doing two things that seem to be contradictory (like keeping hilchos shabbos, and then watching inappropriate movies, according to your example) is not hypocritical. It is an example of a person succeeding on one area and failing in another.

As well, being very strict in one area (lets call it Tznius) and then being less strict in another area (lets call it Kashrus) isn't hypocritical. It is a matter of choosing priorities (As in, "Tznius is very important to me but when it comes to Kashrus, the letter of the law will do"). Now, of course, in Chabad we try to take everything very seriously, and not to be lenient in too many places. That's also a set of priorities. But none of this is hypocritical until someone says one thing, and does another.

[Meshulam]

According to your explanation, hypocrisy only applies if you are actually doing that which you publicly rail against.

More or less. That's the dictionary definition. Now, if you don't feel bound by the dictionary, and feel like talking a language other than English, then that's fine too. But lets at least define our terms here before we debate.

The problem with the kind of relativism that I've noticed on this site (and in the world), is that this relativism starts from a premise of "there is no true right, and no true wrong." Some more mild forms of relativism identify things as absolute right and absolute wrong, but nonetheless assert that the gray area is much bigger then it actually is.

For example: if someone says that Tznius is mostly subjective, that statement is incorrect. But, a relativist nonetheless will believe that, because as long as something isn't lewd or disgusting, it falls into the "gray area." Of course, Chazal protected against this by laying down some black and white ground rules which guide us in limiting the gray area.

Now, for example, we know that there are objective rules in Tznius. There are those who have rejected these rules, who call themseves Orthodox (and, R''L, some even call themselves Chassidim). But, of course, Orthodoxy is based on the premise that Shulchan Aruch is the letter of the law. So a rejection of the laws of Tznius, is a rejection of Orthodoxy, Torah, and G-d.

Similarly, relativism has attacked the dictionary. Today, words are used so loosely according to the creative definitions of the user that they hardly have any meaning left. MCP's usage of the word hypocrisy is evidence of this. She made up her definition:

I think it can be used as a wider term

Then she applied it liberally accross the board:

Everyone is a hypocrite

Ok, fine. But these two statements are baseless and false. And they can only be considered subjectively true if someone is willing to believe that the English language has no rules, and that everything is subject to our opinions and whims. Of course, if that belief is taken to its logical conclusion, all modes of conduct and communication will eventually break down.

[Bittul]

Everyone is a hypocrite. This is not to criticize at all-
This is a stira mineh ubeh. It's hard to take what you said seriously with a statement like that.

The Gemara's take on this is "Avuch Bemah Hava Zohir Tfei" - what was your father more cautious about, a tacit approval of being careful in certain others and not in others. That doesn't imply approval of doing anything wrong, but to be mehader in one thing and not the other is fine.

[mcp]

Okay, please re-read the first post in this thread. The poster writes about "fakers", people who appear to espouse one set of beliefs and sometimes behave as though they espouse a separate system altogether. Instead of "fakers" I use the term hypocrites. If you don't like that term because it means something more specific to you, fine. I don't feel like getting involved in semantics. My point is that everyone has areas that they pick and choose in. Or are more makpid or more lenient.

[Meshulam]

If you don't like that term because it means something more specific to you, fine. I don't feel like getting involved in semantics. My point is that everyone has areas that they pick and choose in. Or are more makpid or more lenient.

It means something more specific to the dictionary and to the English language. That's like if I were to call you an alligator, then tell you that I define alligator as "a person who uses English words imprecisely," when in reality an alligator is a type of animal. I can use the word like that if I want... but that doesn't make it correct. I guess, you have a right to use the word hypocrite however you want. But you haven't used it correctly.

Now, I don't know what you mean makpid and lenient. If you mean makpid and lenient within halacha, then there's nothing wrong with that. If you mean that everyone follows certain halochos but not others then A.) No, some people keep halacha in its entirety to the best of their ability, and B.) you have misused the words "makpid" and "lenient."

Makpid functionally means careful in observance. Lenient means not strict... it doesn't mean noncompliant.

[intodeep]

the kids who are "fakers" are much smarter than the ones who announce it. b/c as u said the ones who are truthful about it have the name on their head while some of u guys in school or their firends know it everyone else is fooled

[When?]

Bs"d
I really want to share-- I came to camp, im in camp now, with girls wj\ho i always thought were my friends, and girls who were very chassidish, and whom nothing seemed to break, and now i have to cry to Hashem b/c out of 3, 2 turned their backs, not totaly but enuf. I can't even tell my parents or my other friends b.c im really embarrased that this happened, and i dont want them to be pained.
I really need chizuk now, cuz im stuck here for another month-- please help me!

Moshiach NOW!

[Bittul]

Sorry no one got to you on this one. You're in a really tough situation. I'll run down a list you can try:

A) Do talk to family and friends. If they are truly friends, yes it will pain them, but they will be glad to share in your pain. And that will lessen your own pain.

B) You need to ask yourself some serious questions: Did I go with this group of girls because they are my friends, or because I want to become their friend? If the latter, well, it doesn't happen automatically. You need to find a way to join them. In general, this doesn't work very well. First have a friend, then go do something with them.

C) If they are friends, or were, then: Did they change, or did I change? Are they less Chasidish suddenly? Did you stop doing something?

D) Am I just being paranoid? Wait a few days and talk to them as you would have before and see what happens.

Not much details in your post, but feel free to continue the conversation.

[hope18]

when - im a bit confused, what are u trying to say that ur friends , all the sudden dropped u? or they became less chassidsh or whatever the word is?

[intodeep]

As much as it is diffiuclt/painful etc for u when, from advice im tellin u stick to ur friends in a "friends" manner. be there for them but dont fall with them. i say from experience it is one of the most painful things to know ur friend has lost her respect for u b/c of what u have done, or is no longer there for u or willing to be ur friend b.c ur not as chasidishe/frum/lubab etc as u were.

[Hiskashrus]

i know that feeling all too well. last summer i also got backs turned at me - and believe me, it caused a churban (and i had no internet with me at the time). my mistakes were to constantly try clinging back to the people that turned their backs at me, in fact - one of the people got very depressed himself after he saw that i got upset that he turned his back on me (pretty confusing, eh?). i usually tend to speak philosophy and mental mumble-jumble, but here i'm speaking from experience.

what i didn't do. i didn't look around and speak to other people
i didn't allow myself to enjoy anything around me
i didn't allow myself to relax, i didn't allow myself to continue with normal life
i didn't allow myself to make new friends
i didn't allow myself to do anything i enjoyed.

i was miserable. instead i used the holier than thou approach, i just cried (ok, i didn't "Cry", but was very depressed) not knowing what to do and i was waiting for some miracle to occur.

it started in the summer but lasted quite a few months, but somehow, someway i started working on other things - i got myself into things that i enjoyed doing, into__ and __. and i was on top of the world again, in less than a month's time i was more revered and more respected than i had been my whole life, and although i tend to slump into these moods every now and then - i still remeber what i can do and what i have done - if i would just concentrate on what i have to do.

see, sometimes you have to seclude yourself from the world, detach yourself from 'reality' and enter your own fantasy world and just do whatever you want to do, wether it be writing, surfing the internet, swimming, or just plain sight-seeing or listening to music - these things could be wonderful.

don't think it's chassidish enough? well, then you are going to drive yourself into total depression or fry out completely (and NEVER EVER say "it's never gonna happen to me"). maybe your level is lower than you thought. not everyone can be a malach.

once you do that you will accomplish 2 things

1) you will be able to get more friends
2) you will be able to tolerate friends that "chill out" because you know that the situation might require it (although it doesn't always have to happen)

see, friends are something very important and very special - but there isn't such a thing as a friend that is bound to your soul.

what i mean to say is that the "Kesher" between friends can diminish from time to time, and the "Kesher" between other friends may be stronger at times - it's all a matter of moods and mental states and there is nothing you can do about it.

i'm sure there are times when you felt like turning your back at your friends (ok, you wouldn't call it that, but that's how they felt no matter how you word it) and they felt bad - but hey - a week or two later you were friends again! does that mean that they are fakers? if so then all of us are fakers!

most people in the world are good-hearted people who don't have any ill intentions, but may be selfish at times - but they will always come back from time to time and pay attention to what's really important - like friendship.

see, when a friend loses interest in another friend (for some time) it shouldn't be considered as hate or lack of interest - (imagine if someone were around you all the time)

i'm not saying that there's no reason to be upset, as i too get upset when friends suddenly lose interest in me or 'turn their backs' - even if it's something (or some manner) that i consider 'severe' - perhaps they don't consider it 'severe'?. see, as i said before: most people are good, but they are also self-centered and selfish, me and you included. so if someone thinks it's ok for them, then they automatically make that decision for their friend without thinking twice, and it's a mistake we all tend to make from time to time.

so, although it may hurt you for 5 minutes, or even 5 hours, you should still let it go - go enjoy life and release your tension and stress on good things, like relaxation and things you enjoy doing - but not at yourself.

"Crying to Hashem" isn't going to help much. why? hashem wants people to figure out things by themselves. how many times have you heard your mother say "You do your best and hashem will do the rest"? - i'm sure youv'e heard it many times - and guess what - it's true.

believe it or not - this all can amount to a challenge in avodas hashem itself - and while you might even become a bit more "Frummer" and more "Chassidish" you should know that this is the way of the Yetzer Hora (yes, depression is BAD, Period.) he will soon show you that being more chassidish isn't helping you and bring you along with him to his true ways. and these aren't my words, but rather perek Chof Zayin in tanya (the only perek i know by heart)

you are stuck - so make the best of where you are - i'm sure there's always SOMETHING TO DO, worst case - go to your local bathroom and read anything you want (prefferably reader's digest) - it's better than being depressed and fighting over friends.

see, you can't control friends - it's either theyr'e interested or not. how many times have i looked down at the sidelines and see "Lonely People" (like the song) but had nothing to say to them, nothing to inspire them! - it just couldn't come to me - was i bad? was i evil? was i selfish? probably not. see, friends are mutually beneficial - when one friend doesn't enjoy the other, then it's already in the category of "Mashpia" "Supporter", or "Mentor" and i'm not sure how much you want that.

the bottom line: MOVE ON!! AND ENJOY LIFE!!!

enough said

i'll post something about "faking it" on another opporuntiy

[intodeep]

wow. u can see u talk from experience.

[believer]

When I was in 9th grade, and I went away for high school. Back then I had been "Ultra" Chassidish, but I didn't understand back then alot about friends, and I used the "holier then thou" approach. I wrote some emails to people in my old class berating them off about them being not tznius and not chassidish (which was not true). I was just naive and "ultra" chassidish, (I was also a major nerd who was not normal) and I hurt the feelings of many caring people who have been my classmates and friends. I was never able to bring myself to apologize later in life. I was and still am ashamed of myself. Now, years later, I'm a different person. I've changed since then, I may be considered chassidish, but I think of everyone else as more chassidish than me. Then i went through a stage where i started bumming out and acted like a faker.but i got over that. now i'm normal (I'm not a nerd, but I am no faker, I'm just myself and I only look up at people and I think of everyone as better than me) and i have tons of friends. I think alot of these people are still angry but don't show it. I hope these people forgive me. I felt this belonged in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hiskashrus]

i'll tell you something. in real life - if someone would share these experiences with me - a total stranger, then i would look strangely at that person;

but this is the internet and i feel that i can say anything i want to say. and i feel that same way about you.

your honesty is greatly appreciated.

and about being ultra-chassidish, i think it's just part of the maturing process. i wish i could explain now, but iv'e got no time.

it's a painful and embarassing stage that have gone (and am going) through and just part of the growing process

[jewgal84]

Everything is Hashgacha Protis.

Like Roza mentioned earlier : for shidduch sake, fake it.

Some people don't know what to look for, so they assume if they get what they asked ie: tznius, chassidish, frum etc they'll get a happy, outgoing person, sometimes u gotta wear ur "fake it" hat to get through the "iron" gates.

Im not saying you should live ur life a lie- rather u do the best u could and b the best person u could b, and dont worry about what people say about u.

At the end of the day you will marry ur beshert, whichever way it is.

As a counselor in my junior teenage yrs, i always thought i was a faker, i used to always wear short socks, yet when it came to the summer, i started wearing long socks, not only that, but i had to teach the importance of wearing long socks. I would always think im being such a hyprocite, yet in Chassidus it says at first it may seem like ur not being urself and making urself higher than u really are, but that what leads u to a higher level, "faking" it in itself will lead u to really being u!!!

In addition, some people go through a "phase" like during the summer time u might think theyre all fake etc, but theyre just the same girls u think they are with a bit of a weaker yetzer hara. I dont think its fair to judge them.

What u see in others, is what u see in urself, maybe its time instead of looking at others look in urself!

[AhavasYisrael]

As has been said a few times throughout this thread, just because someone acts in two seemingly different ways, does not mean that s/he is faking it. Maybe the person is really trying to do the right thing, but has a challenge in that other area. A chossid, the Rebbe says in HaYom Yom, is someone who knows where he is standing --his achievements and shortcomings-- and makes it his mission to overcome his challenges. It is not always apparent to the spectator how a person is working on himself or how far he's come.

In regards to "faking" it for a shidduch. I don't think the intent of that statement was to suggest that people hide who they really are while going out. I think the message behind it was that if you want people to suggest you for a shidduch, you should be someone who davens, says chitas, dresses tznius, etc. because what people see is the chetzonius [external] and are not always going to be digging for the p'nimius [internal].

When going out, it is very important that you be yourself. There are enough miscommunications as it is.
1. There's nervousness.
2. People have different definitions to certain words and while it sounds like you both want the same thing, each person may have something completely different in mind.
3. A nod to show you understand might come across as agreeing to something.
The list goes on and on and that's with being yourself! True, everything is hashgacha protis and you will marry your bashert, b'ezras Hashem, but a person has to do his hishtadlus. Acting as if you are a different kind of person is not fair to yourself and is not fair to the other person. It could lead chas v'sholom to one of you being miserable.

[chocoholic613]

i once heard/read a story somewhere, that went something like this.

in the times of one of the rabeim, the chassidim were getting very upset and angry at one chassid, whom they thought was a "faker", who would learn a lot, but only to impress ppl. the chassidim were getting sick of this behavior, so they came to the rebbe with a complaint. when the rebbe heard their story, he replied, "well, this guy will eventually reach so much higher a level than you, just by "faking it", as you call it. because someone who "fakes it", will eventually make it."

botten line, "if you fake it" long enough, it will eventually become a part of you. and besides, its not up to us to judge, who's "faking it", and who's the "real" thing.
may we all be zoiche the coming of moshiach, speedily now, and then such matters wont concern us anymore!

[Angelzdotax]

ok, forgive me if this is a terrible thing to say. What if these "faking" girls attended the jewish school because their families had expected it of them? Could it not be, that maybe watching movies, listening to non jewish music, and dressing differently is something they really enjoy?

please forgive me if my idea has been covered already or if its totally out of place. (which i think it is..)

[jewgal84]

Im not sure I get your q'-

Why would they need to fake it when they're enjoying what they do and they obviously wanna get married to a person who enjoys it as well?

[Angelzdotax]

I cut into the coversation and just had a comment about what the people in the beginning had posted. I thought that maybe they would would fake it because they have families who have high expectations of them, and during the summer is the only time they can relax and be where they feel they belong. My point in short, maybe they would need to fake it because otherwise their parents would, well, get really mad!

yeah, my post isnt related to marriage....

[Hiskashrus]

Expectations is also another important factor to consider - is one acting the way he/she does because that individual thinks that this is the way to go, or is he just trying to meet a certain expectation, and hence he will try to act in accordance to it.

Expectations are the source of many people's actions and "faking it" - faking can have many faces, but clearly the rebbe was against Expectations; expectations are false, fake and robotic and definitely not something that's part of the Rebbe's Derech.

The rebbe was very against classifications and stereotypes - the rebbe treated every jew for who he was, and every mitzvah as something individual.

What if one day the person wakes up and doesn't like his "Class" or his "Expectations" what if he wants to do something else - then he has to change his whole outlook on life and everything goes bonkers; whereas if the person's mind is intent on the pure and wholsome expectation of Dirah B'tachtonim and the like; which encompasses many different possible actions and behaviors.

It all boils down to the question of "who am i" - when you are trying to fullfill someone else's expectations then you are basically ensalving yourself to that person or ideology - and usually unknowingly, because when an expectation needs to be met, and that expectation requires a change of thought and behavior - the person must change his outlook on life. but that change isn't real but only implanted as part of that expectation, and when the expectation collapses, so does that mindset.

We must ask ourselves what makes us CHaBaD - the acronym for wisdom understanding and knowledge, the common denominator being that none of the above are external and foreign to a person's outlook on life, but rather being part of the person - therefore empowering the person to change, much like a person matures -

Maturing isn't acheived through making yourself part of a certain group or ideology, but rather through the modification and enhancement of one's thought process and the way he looks at things; same being with avodah and chassidus, you don't automatically become an Oved or a chossid through acting or - YES - even thinking - like one, but rather through understanding and self-meditation - or in the words of chassidus "Hisbonnenus Adaata D'nafsheih", the reason being that the only way to really change one's self is through one's self - not through anythng foreign; because what goes around comes around, i.e. what begins as a foreign idea will also end up foreign.

of course i have left out many crucial details... VAK"M VDU"K VD"L

[CubanJewish]

Listen the girl is right, it is almost like having two lives.

But I must say to any of you who worry about these "Fakers", Stop Caring!


Continue to work on yourself. You know YOU are a good person.

I know you want to help "the lost children" but if they dont want your help, what can you do?

Judging them wont help you.

You know those chassidish girls who [act immorally--mod.] before marriage and pretend to be innocent. YES it is disgusting, but what can you do?

Those girls want to act that way. Let them.

;) You know you were raised correctly and that is all that matters.

[bachurette]

Those girls want to act that way. Let them.

;) You know you were raised correctly and that is all that matters.

That's the complete opposite approach enouraged by the Rebbe. The whole idea of Shlichus is that it's not enough that you are a frum Yid for yourself, but all Yidden are responsible for one another! If you know Aleph, teach Aleph- don't just keep it for yourself!
And Charity begins at home. Shlichus doesn't only mean putting on Tfilin with an alienated Jewish Eskimo in the Arctic, it also includes our fellow Lubabs that are having issues. Making sure you don't come across as preachy, holier then thou, etc...

[Hiskashrus]

i think she is reffering to something much deeper than that.

i think it might help to read my above posts

[ahem]

the Rebbe clearly said 'Hergel Naaseh Tevah Sheni'- what you do ( whether fake or real) becomes second nature, ie. becomes oart of who you are. Maybe it didnt permeate them enough YET, and summer is still a struggle. Theyll get there iyh...

[Hiskashrus]

i think that actually comes from the AR, if not earlier

[ahem]

I meant the AR- in Tanya Perek...

[lubablulu]

Listen I can tell you first hand this faking business is good stuff. My principal in high school used to constantly force me to "fake" doing the things that I didn't really feel I wanted to do. I don't think it's that I didn't beleive in them, but perhaps I was just being a teenager and wanted to rebel a little. On the other hand, I probably wasn't one of those girls who most people would describe as a "faker", but most of my friends were. Maybe my friends who were faking back then weren't doing it the right way, but today all of those girls have either really become that way or are still "faking it" it permanently. Some people have the personality that they just need to do what they need to do even if they don't feel anything. My friends who were not "fakers" and who did whatever they felt like doing have no attachment to yiddishkeit today, and therefore I'm very happy that I faked back then. Even if you're a faker all of your life it pays off and it's better than not doing anything at all. Teiku.

[rokky27]

fake it for the shidduch sake.
'like marry like', right? so if someone is a 'faker' won't they just marry some1 like themself??
if someone is c'v not chassidishe, why would that person want to marry someone that is? they'd be completely different.

[hishtatchus]

I think the idea is that you will hopefully improve at some point in life, and you don't need a reputation of your teenage "fling" following you.

[unvme4iamaqt]

I can see what n'eNow is saying. It is hard for a girl to trust in a girl and look up to her when she tells her something, and then see the truth about this girl. No matter what situation you are in, you can hurt ppl. around you by doing this. I think that if you are working on yourself, that's great, we all should be, but that doesn't give you a reason to tell ppl. off and do it 10 minutes after. Working on yourself doesn't mean fixing other people! And for those of you that said we are all hypocrits, it shouldn't be like that. There is absolutely no excuse! Who do you think you are when you are struggling with the same thing as someone else to tell that person what to do. In high school girls do put on a show. There are lots of girls that put on a show but really try. There are also girls who put on the show for the rest of thier lives, ie getting pushed in to the best seminaries, great shlichus but they are still pretending, it just doesn't stop. Those people are so caught up in pretending and putting others down that they just fall lower. and they also marry a guy that is just like that. What I am saying is if you are working on yourself- you are doing the right thing, but don't hurt others while doing it. Those girls deep inside know they are fooling the worl and themselves, and personally I think it is extremely wrong. Again, I am not talking about girls who say thier chitas only in school, but the girls that are known as the chassidish active ones in school, telling girls what to wear and dress, and all of a sudden in the summer do the exact opposite. Even if it helps you by telling others, it is very wrong and whoever does that should stop right away. Just imagine seeing your bnos chabad head or mashpia in the summer wearing flip flops, short skirt, talking to boys! not such a pretty sight!

[searching4truth]

hypocrite - 1.a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 2.a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.
Firstly I must say, why is everyone so focused on everyone else?????:silly: Secondly, I have worked with teenagers and ost of them have not been taught the reasons behind most of the things they are told to do. Most are questioning and not getting proper answer. A lot of them don't even have the courage to ask, for fear that they might be labeled "not chassidish."

I think one of the most important flaws with now adays is that everyone is labeling people. What "Chassidish" is now adays is not the "Chassidish" it used to be. Plus we never know what's going on inside someone else's heart and mind or what obstacles they have faced or are facing.

One may find mostly in schools that children label each other. Some students with low selfesteem might be trying to prove themselves to the world (and in a sence losing more of their own identity to themselves.) I think we need to refocus and go to the underlying root of the problem, not the surface - namely wondering what is a hypocrite or not. Most certainly these girls have a lacking in knowledge. Why don't we try to teach them somehow and reach out to them, ultimately letting them chose the path for themselves in the truest form!:D

[lubablulu]

The entire world is made up of labels, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's just part of life. What we could do though make an effort to end the labeling our fellow jews.

[searching4truth]

B"H
There is truth to your words.....

[amoretz]

The entire world is made up of labels, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's just part of life. What we could do though make an effort to end the labeling our fellow jews.
We can label them until there is no room left for labels.

[searching4truth]

We can label them until there is no room left for labels.

And what exactly would that accomplish????

[Gevurah]

this......

[amoretz]

And what exactly would that accomplish????

It would put the end to labeling, as there will be no room left for labels.

[searching4truth]

this......
You are quite the comic

[Gevurah]

wait for the annotated edition.

[searching4truth]

B"H
Gevurah....please use your strength and witty wisdom to enlighten us all as how to go about using up all the labels???

[Gevurah]

did you read the book?

[searching4truth]

B"H
Not as of yet, well it's not the kind of reading material you would find on my personal bookshelf (hint: being that I am not married yet...)

[searching4truth]

B"H
Ok got the download of the book.....even as much as they used their labels, they havn't used up all of them......LOL There's always the possibility of finding more things to label....Hence, the question persists....A. How is it possible to label people till we use up all the labels and B. What would that accomplish......????
Let's go Gevurah!!! You can do it!

[Gevurah]

Can but won't. It would give away my label ;)

[searching4truth]

Can but won't. It would give away my label ;)

AHA! Such is symantics! :rolleyes: :cross-eye

[hishtatchus]

Semantics may disagree...

[searching4truth]

B"H
Please explain

[BeAjew]

hey i saw that same question on frumspace and saw a good answer..

basically lets say ur this person like to whom everyone on in school who just sees you , you daven, say chitas wtvr ur a good girl.. but after sc hool,, lets say u talk to guys (im putting this in a girls version) k, so dont say look im being fake and stop davening , saying chitas,, THAT doesnt contradict.. keep on doing those mitzvos kol hakavoed.. but dont like make it know to the world hey i do chitas and everything.. like dont go around school saying i say chitas or like go telling other ppl. to .. cuz then your kinda like saying look im chassidish then ppl. look at u like that so then if u talk to guys its being hyprocritical.. do u guys get wat im saying? like when you go off pronouncing to the world that u do all good stuff.. then ppl. actually believe you which should be cuz why would they think you would lie or be false.. then when they see you doing something else they get a diff. impression.. i hope i explained myself enough...

[The Eighth King]

The problem with your answer is that you see the "talking to guys" as the true self, and the "doing Chitas etc" as the lie. The truth is that it is the other way around (כידוע המעשה) that the true self is the "doing Chitas etc" and the lie is the "talking to guys."

[BeAjew]

k i might not be getting this cuz im really tired but please explain yourself

[emes m'eretz]

I think he means that you are hiding the real you (since your G-dly soul, the real you, wants to learn chitas and duven); and you are doing this hiding in order that other people shouldn't consider you a hypocrite.

But when you think about it, you aren't a hypocrite.

If a doctor told someone to eat vegetables and not smoke, and the patient ate vegetables but still smoked, would someone call the patient a hypocrite?
The patient knows that all of the doctor's orders should be followed. But right now he has this strong urge to smoke. But he still believes that the doctor is a true expert and is 100% right. And if someone said: "Look, you smoke anyways, you should stop eating vegetables or you are a hypocrite," the patient would answer: "I smoke because of my urge. I know it's wrong. But that's no reason to stop vegetables, which I know are very important to my well-being. And eventually I hope that I will get healthier and have the strength to overcome my urge to smoke."

The same thing here. Sometimes we do good things, and not good things. We don't give up the good things just because we are doing the not good things. Right now the good things are important to our well-being. And eventually the positive benefits of the good things will strengthen our resolve and help us overcome our negative urges.

Ihope this is clear. A Guten Moed.

[TorahJewess]

If we're talking about faking it to get a shidduch, what if the boy's faking it as well.... he seems chassidish to people, but then goes talking to girls etc...

[Frum???]

Some people fake it b/c if they don't they'll get in trouble w/ either school or parents.