Frediker Rebbe's kapitol

[Majorchassid]

I heard that chassidim should say the Frediker rebbe's kapitol. Anyone have a source for that?

[Hiskashrus]

that sounds kinda obscure to me!

all i can tell you is that no real chossid of the rebbe would make a big fuss of saying the friediker rebbe's kapitel.

saying the rebbes kapitel is something exclusive the the CURRENT rebbe (of course, the rebbe's "Current" rebbe was the Friediker Rebbe)

[Majorchassid]

dunno...i heard it from s/o I trust, but she doesn't know the source either. She says the Rebbe said it......

[Hiskashrus]

well, of course the rebbe said it - the rebbe was a chossid of the frierdiker rebbe, but we aren't.

according to this logic the rebbe should have also said the kapittel of the rebbe rashab (since i'm sure the Frierdiker rebbe said it)

and there are many more examples that can be applied.

your signature says "yechi hamelech" - and although i'm not a mishichist by any means, and actually happen to be quite staunchly opposed to this whole theology, i will say this. what was the logic in applying "Yechi Hamelech" to the rebbe, evidently the rebbe had mean the frierdiker rebbe?

rather these concepts and ideas don't apply to a single physical person, but rather to their current rebbe, for example - i'm sure that chassidim of the tzemach tzedek believed that he was the moshiach, but the chassidim of the rebbe maharash believed that HE was the moshiach

[Majorchassid]

Kiddush, you are WAY off track. First of all- in each generation the nasi is the moshiach- no question about it.
Second of all-the concepts apply to each nasi in his generation- that is a single physical person
Third-we aren't chassidim of the frediker Rebbe, but we have the chutzpa to call ourselves Chabad Chassidim?! We are chassidim of all the Rebbeim, but especially the 7th-aka the Rebbe.
Maybe the Rebbe did say the kapitol of the Rashab, and we just don't know about it. Maybe the Rebbe only requested that we say the frediker Rebbe's.

[Shir Chadash]

On Purim a few years after Yud Shvat 5710, the Rebbe said about the Fredeker Rebbe "nishmaso bi" - "his neshama is in me".

[Hiskashrus]

1. iv'e never heard that the rebbe asked that people say the frierdiker rebbe's kapittel- not as an hora'a lerabim.

2. iv'e never seen this by any chassidishe yid.

3. it just doesn't make sense for the reasons i have posted above. we are chassidim of the rebbe. period. so we do all hanhagos pertaining to our current rebbe - why isn't... say, yud-beis yud-gimmel tammuz as big as hey teves? and other thingd like that.

i'm not trying to diminish the importance of the frierdiker rebbe, but we must realize who our rebbe is - it's the same thing by everybody - it's evidently clear that all the rabbeim had a different branch or focus point regarding avodas hashem, so trying to say "i'm a chossid of all the rabbeim" is just pure nonsense.

of course, whatever the rabbeim have established and customs are to remain as such - but these aren't things that are specific to that rebbe but rather woven into the chabad heritage, and therefore "universal" - but to try to go after each rebbe's derech in avoda is impossible and absurd.

and i'm sure that there are more things to concentrate on than saying the frierdiker rebbes kapittel. (i have heard of people saying the rebbitzin's kappitel)

you could look up heichal menachem (3 blue and red book), the rebbin's kinder (big blue book) and mikdash melech (i think it's called that - it's 3 beige books) - most of these "out of leftfield" things that youv'e never heard about usually appear over there

[Bittul]

I am a Chossid of the Rebbe not the FR.

The Rebbe only told individuals who had been saying the FR kapitel in the first year of nesius to continue. Never afterwards.

[zaraza]

Majorchassid: I heard that chassidim should say the Frediker rebbe's kapitol. Anyone have a source for that?
Kiddush:1. iv'e never heard that the rebbe asked that people say the frierdiker rebbe's kapittel- not as an hora'a lerabim.
Bittul: The Rebbe only told individuals who had been saying the FR kapitel in the first year of nesius to continue. Never afterwards.
Actually the Rebbe spoke about it in many Sichos and wrote about it in Igros. By many of the Yud Bais Tammuz Farbrengens (the FR Rebbe’s birthday) the Rebbe would mention the new Kapital which we are starting to say and there were times Yud Shevat where the Rebbe mentioned it. This was true even in the later years like the Mems so who is to say that this was only for the FR Rebbe’s Chassidim.
The letter with the Minhagim for Yud Shevat (aliyos, mishnayos vchu’) is addressed to the Mekusharim and Chassidim of the FR Rebbe and nevertheless the Rebbe said that it should be published in Kfar Chabad every year and the Rebbe spoke about even in the later years; and until today kimat everyone keeps these Minhagim so its not so pashut to make a blanket statement that such thing don’t apply to us.

[Bittul]

Last time I checked the Rebbe is a Chossid of the FR. And I am well aware that very often the Rebbe spoke on Pesukim from the FR kapitel. Which is not the same as directing us to say it every day, which the Rebbe did not do.

[zaraza]

When the Rebbe said by a public Farbrengen with thousands of people listening that this year we start saying Kapital... he was only talking about himself (and maybe the handful of eltere Chassidim), is that what you're trying to say?

and besides the fact is that the Rebbe said it by a Farbrengen in Tuf Shin Yud as a Horaa Lerabbim so who is to decide that this only meant them and not us ?

Did you ever go to the Ohel before Gimmel Tammuz? Hayitachen?

[Shir Chadash]

When the Rebbe said by a public Farbrengen with thousands of people listening that this year we start saying Kapital... he was only talking about himself (and maybe the handful of eltere Chassidim), is that what you're trying to say?

and besides the fact is that the Rebbe said it by a Farbrengen in Tuf Shin Yud as a Horaa Lerabbim so who is to decide that this only meant them and not us ?

Did you ever go to the Ohel before Gimmel Tammuz? Hayitachen?

Personally I also do say the Freideker Rebbe's kapital for the same reasons mentioned above.

[Bittul]

I think you should say the Rebbe Rashab's kapitel also.

[Majorchassid]

Bittul, I hate your cynicism!

[Hiskashrus]

why? i think he is making a valid point!

is the frierdiker rebbe also alive b'gashmius then? maybe we should also make a "shvil" for the FR, because it says in... that he's alive

and i'm not talking about 5710, but rather in 5745 "he is alive and therefore inheritance doesn't apply" - these are words the rebbe said! how dare we go and write all these things on the frierdiker rebbe.

thinking the rebbe is alive b'gashmius might be some (albeit wrong- IMHO) hergesh, but saying that about the FR is just absurd!

things can't always be taken literally - or at least to any and every literal meaning - go up and down likuttei sichos and even more - sichos kodesh and hisvaaduyos and see how many things cannot be taken literally.

[Torah613]

I must have missed something - what does the Rebbe or FR being "alive" (whatever that means) or not have to do with saying their kapitol? And how did the idiotic shvil fly in here?

[Hiskashrus]

i'm trying to explain that some minhagim are done explicitly and mainly because the rebbe said to do them (and also provided a reason to do so), but some are based on one's hergesh, and saying the rebbe's kapittel is one of those things that are hergesh-based (self-explanatory i think)

all the sources for the shvil are just as legitimate as those sources for saying the frierdiker rebbe's kapittol

and both are examples of a hergesh gone to extreme chitzonius

sometimes we have to use some seichel

[zaraza]

This is what the Rebbe said! What are you saying "not to be taken literally" this is not a Maamar that we are arguing on, the Rebbe said do this and this not to be taken literally!?! Do you consider yourself a Chassid? This is not hergesh-this is what the Rebbe said to do!

And for those that make a shvil for the Rebbe they can make a shvil for the Frierdiker Rebbe also since to them it is the same thing...

[Torah613]

A few points [after full disclosure: I do not say the kapitel of the FR, though there was a time many years ago that I did, probably after hearing something from the Rebbe to that effect. What exactly that was, and why I later stopped - I no longer remember. comes with age...]:
1) I fail to see the great kanois, against davka not saying the FR's kapitel, leading to the unfortunate comparison (which I still don't understand) to those .... who make a shvill and other similar things. Why would it bother anyone? Why would it seem to some to be a major flaw in hiskashrus?
2) A silly question: Those who were bochurim in 5710, and heard or read the sicha (12 Tamuz?) about continuing saying the kapital of the FR - at what point did they become great enough Chassidim of the Rebbe to stop saying it? Or did the "real" Chassidim never continue saying it at all (after 10 Shvat 5711)?
3) The Rebbe several (many?) times discussed the kapital of the Rashab on 20 Cheshvon (5740 for example) [mentioning that this is the new kapital being said], sometimes stressing that it does not contradict the fact that there was the FR (see 5749).
[4) We have sources for "some" saying the FR's kapital (though one can be mefalpel if it was a horo'oh or not) - what "sources" are there for a shvill (hinted at by kiddush)?]
Bottom line: i don't see the big fuss either way

[Hiskashrus]

i'm not making a big deal about saying the FR's kapittel, but rather the ideology behind it - don't you realize that this is the same ideology of the shvil? don't you realize that the rebbe always refered to the FR as the current rebbe, and therefore acted that way throughout the nesius - what did the rebbe write countless times? Azkir Al Hatzion! - why did people have to shlep the rebbe if all he did was "Read panim at the ohel" - couldn't that be done through the person himself? did the rebbe ever imply that there is something more to it than just reading panim at the ohel? no. but people still realized that their rebbe is the Rebbe and not the FR, and therefore gave panim to the rebbe - and didn't (hypothetically) "Care" if it was read at the FR's ohel or not.

but "simple" logic based on what the rebbe had "said" would suggest otherwise! what a chutzpa that people would go to the rebbe and bother him with all their question - especially that the rebbe just considered himself a shliach or an extension of the FR - then why not just go to the source.

the point i'm trying to make is that many things that the rebbe said about the frierdiker rebbe were somewhat cryptical if we should try to apply that same logic and reason to our generation. what does it mean when the rebbe says that the FR is alive.. ("b'gashmius"...) and the rebbe himself had just gone to the ohel 2 days earlier, are we to say (like i have actually heard from some people) that he is alive in the ohel??

we must draw the lines between Kabolas ol and Seichel and know what goes where, and we must understand that there are things that we just "Don't understand" and not just "Don't understand WHY" and i hope this is understood, this point was brought out and stressed in "Nekudas Hachabadis" and was long due then.

the similarity between the shvil is that there are many "valid" sources that can be literally interpreted to imply that the rebbe is alive in a human form and still continues his day to day activities and actually based on common logic that is Solely based on the rebbe's sichos - actually makes sense -

but one glance at the outside world and this logic is ridiculous - how come? why? doesn't the rebbe establish the facts, and not the facts establish the state of the rebbe? but if you answer "you have to think for yourself" then i would say that you would also have to think for yourself regarding the reason of saying (or not saying) the FR's kapittel, before bashing the majority of people who don't do it.

i personally don't think that it damages one's current level of hiskashrus, in fact most of the chassidus that i learn is from the FR and the Rebbe rahsab - does that make me a chossid of the rebbe rashab? should i davka learn maamorim of the rebbe even though i won't understand them as well as i do understand 5662 or 5657? - some may argue and say yes,. some may say that as long as i'm just learning it as a hachono for the rebbe's maamorim then it's ok. - but i don't think it makes a difference really, if somebody loves the rebbe - great! if someone has some kind of hergesh for the rebbe and therefore thinks it's proper to do something - fine! but don't impose your hergeishim on others, because a hergesh is something very personal and unpredictable, and you can't implant a hergesh.

unfortunately this problem has plagued many of the main chabd yeshivos around the world, and i'm not talking about tzfas.

[zaraza]

Do you do the Yud Shevat Minhagim?

[Shir Chadash]

why? i think he is making a valid point!

is the frierdiker rebbe also alive b'gashmius then? maybe we should also make a "shvil" for the FR, because it says in... that he's alive

and i'm not talking about 5710, but rather in 5745 "he is alive and therefore inheritance doesn't apply" - these are words the rebbe said! how dare we go and write all these things on the frierdiker rebbe.

thinking the rebbe is alive b'gashmius might be some (albeit wrong- IMHO) hergesh, but saying that about the FR is just absurd!

things can't always be taken literally - or at least to any and every literal meaning - go up and down likuttei sichos and even more - sichos kodesh and hisvaaduyos and see how many things cannot be taken literally.

The Fredeker Rebbe is still alive b'gashmius - in the body of our Rebbe, zal zein guzunt - as the Rebbe said "nishmaso bi".

[Shir Chadash]

I must have missed something - what does the Rebbe or FR being "alive" (whatever that means) or not have to do with saying their kapitol? And how did the idiotic shvil fly in here?

Please refrain from lashon hara against somthing that others may consider holy.

Thank-you

[Torah613]

Please refrain from writing provocative nareshkeiten.
Thank you.

[Hiskashrus]

remember, this is the internet. a faceless and nameless voice saying "holy" or "narish" will only add insult to injury.

again how this ideology has brought some pretty weird (but unforunately common) opinions.

shir chadash. i think youv'e opened up your eyes already. now it's time to open up you ears and head, remeber, opening up one's eyes doesn't mean that he should close everything else for the sake of it!

and the rebbe had urged year after year for all the chassidim to be INVOLVED in yud shvat.

besides, there's more to yud shvat than the histalkus of the FR. and we can see

[Chabadnika]

I have heard that Rabbi Yisroel Gordon of Morristown says the kapitlach for all the Rebbeim.

[Hiskashrus]

reb yisroel gordon was a chossid of the frierdiker rebbe and is still to date - and so are many people at that age

nothing wrong with it - but that's just the way it is - he's a mekushar to the FR and therefore (might) say his kappitel.

the case is defferent in our case where we have no realistic connection to the FR

[Shir Chadash]

Please refrain from writing provocative nareshkeiten.
Thank you.

Please explain to me how my requesting that you (and your friends) not speak lashon hara against the Meshichistim, is provocative? To me it seems to be a simple matter of halacha and derech eretz.

[Majorthinker]

Why do you say that?

[Chabadnika]

1. How does that explain why R' Gordon would say the kapitlach for all the Rebbeim?

2. What makes someone a mekushar of the FR and someone else not a mekushar of the FR?

[Hiskashrus]

well, your first question i can't really answer because i can't speak for r' gordon

and for your second question, - although the rebbe is the last rebbe until moshiach - just try to consider if suddenly you were to accept a new rebbe! wouldn't it be hard to change from one rebbe to the next? you have been mekushar of the rebbe for many years and it's very hard to totally give yourself over to anybody else.

[Majorchassid]

But if you are truly mekushar then you are also mekushar to your rebbe's memaleh makom, and since it is one neshamaah, then you are mekushar to the new rebbe also
he is carryingf on the task of the old rebbe

[Chabadnika]

You haven't answered my second question.

[Hiskashrus]

But if you are truly mekushar then you are also mekushar to your rebbe's memaleh makom, and since it is one neshamaah, then you are mekushar to the new rebbe also
he is carryingf on the task of the old rebbe

i knew someone was going to say that, and true it is... but easier said than done.

r' nissan nemenov who was a beinuni of tanya still compared the rebbe to yehoshua and the FR to moshe rabbeinu (maybe i'll tell this story later on - but this is a true one)

[Majorthinker]

You knew someone was going to say that because it is the truth.

[Hiskashrus]

well, it is the "truth" just as many things are "true" but aren't seen entirely in this world, and their truth is ideological and conceptual rather than evidential and realistic

[Chabadnika]

But if you are truly mekushar then you are also mekushar to your rebbe's memaleh makom, and since it is one neshamaah, then you are mekushar to the new rebbe also
he is carryingf on the task of the old rebbe

By this logic, then if you are mekushar to the new Rebbe, then shouldn't you also be mekushar to the Rebbe before him, since they are one neshama, etc.?

[Majorthinker]

By this logic, then if you are mekushar to the new Rebbe, then shouldn't you also be mekushar to the Rebbe before him, since they are one neshama, etc.?
That is what I was saying.

[Bittul]

You can assume what you want about who you are mekushar to, but as the first generations would say, your yechidah can only be given to one Rebbe.

On Nisen, one can debate whether he was a beinonu or not (I have no clue, and truthfully neither do you), but he could still be lacking in Hiskashrus while being a Beinoni. There is historical precedent for that.

[Hiskashrus]

if i'm not mistaken, i think i heard that the rebbe called him that.

emphasis on "think" and "heard"

[Majorthinker]

you think the rebbe called who what?
please clarify, and quote the post u are responding to next time.

[Hiskashrus]

i forgot already - i forgot to log off from hiskashrus at work - and all my posts are modded before they are posted.

a few posts were deleted.. but i think i was talking about r' nissen nemenov being a beinuni

[Shir Chadash]

i forgot already - i forgot to log off from hiskashrus at work - and all my posts are modded before they are posted.

a few posts were deleted.. but i think i was talking about r' nissen nemenov being a beinuni

On parshas Emor 5751 our Rebbe said that "now there is to say that EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL can reach the highest levels in avodas HaShem" (via ibbur neshama). (I.e. the levels of tzaddikim)

[TorahJewess]

whats wrong with saying an extra kapitel? this years is really short and we all know it... its shir hamalos, the opne before bentching. it takes half a minute to say it and even if ur not saying it for the FR, it's an extra kapitel that'll bring Moshiach closer!

[mordechai7215]

I have heard that Rabbi Yisroel Gordon of Morristown says the kapitlach for all the Rebbeim.
How can you say for all the rebbeim? Tehilim only goes up to 150!

[Chabadnika]

I have often wondered this myself. :-)

[shoyn]

simply say kuf nun and one more!

[TorahJewess]

i think there was another forum about this -- what happens when we get to 150.

[ineedhelp]

just wondering majorchossid did you go to chicago for school?

[Kapote]

Source for saying one's kapital or that of another person corresponding to the age of the person is from the Baal Shem Tov ? Where besides the back of the tehillim letter? and more importantly why davka the perek from tehillim?

[Gevurah]

see Haaros 917 about p.231

[Torah613]

Yeah, a chiddush that the Rambam also had that minhog...:)

[RavSiach]

I heard that chassidim should say the Frediker rebbe's kapitol. Anyone have a source for that?

As others have noted, there are numerous references to it in sichos and letters.

While it is certainly a valid practice, one wonders whether this is something that has to be taught to the youth today. Foremost would be establishing that they say the Rebbe's kapitel and relate to it...

[The Yud Shevat minhogim were not only referenced and republished by the Rebbe's instruction, they are also included in the Colel Chabad Luach which was edited by the Rebbe. Some will question now that we have a Gimel Tamuz to practice, need all the practices of Yud Shevat be followed. Difficult question, though of course for those that have been doing it they must continue to do so.]

As far as sources, when I was a youngster back in the alte tzeiten (mem's), the FR kapitel ws encouraged in various yeshivos. And if my memory serves me, when Reb Shmuel Dovid Raitchik used to come by the Yeshiva he would tell the bochurim to say it - understandable since he was a chosid of his.

[Kapote]

but again...why tehillim?

[RavSiach]

but again...why tehillim?

Please explain your question.