How Will Israel Get Arms?

[Esrog]

I want to raise an issue that is really a religious issue, and as our sages say, “Know what to answer the non-believer.” And also a practical issue.

The day is coming that American arms sales will, G-d forbid, be curtailed to Israel unless Israel is willing to make more suicidal concessions.

How can Israel make its own weapons without Western arms sales? There is a price to be paid for refusing Western pressure to commit suicide. The Rebbe once told the prime minister of Israel that if he couldn’t take the pressure he should step aside for one who can.

Practically speaking, what can Israel do to make its own arms if Western aid is, G-d forbid, cut off?

This is also a religious question because inevitably we have to have faith and do the right thing regardless.

Take for instance the new jet fighter the US is building, called the “Joint Strike Fighter.” Given the need for ever more sophisticated jets, each jet becomes more and more expensive. The Joint Strike Fighter was intended to cut these costs somewhat be producing a single jet that could be used by all the services, army, marines, navy (for use on air craft carriers) and of course the air force.

The Joint Strike Fighter is such an enormous undertaking that many countries are collaborating on it, Arab states will get it, and Israel will either get it or have to make its own, something equal or better.

Israel was planning to make its own jet fighter some years ago and then the US killed the project to avoid competition. But the Joint Strike Fighter is much more advanced. Also, Israel would not only have to make its own but even its own engines, which are currently made by Pratt and Whitney or General Electric and that is a whole separate production. We are talking about a huge demand on Israel’s industrial base, thousands of workers and a huge number of companies and factories needed to make the jet if the US cancels on Israel.

This is a big part of the challenge Israel has to deal with if it bucks American pressure.

The Joint Strike Fighter has stealth capability, very sophisticated missiles and other weapons, computer-controlled targeting and related systems and tremendous agility --- the ability to stop on a dime, change directions and give you 8 cents change. The best of all these things ever in a jet fighter. It also has a new technology called a “lift fan” developed by Lockheed. The problem is that the Joint Strike Fighter is designed to be able to take off and land vertically when necessary, in areas where runways are not available, such as in little areas out in the desert where there is no airfield or on a small patch of a highway, or off the deck of a ship. So the jet has a jet engine also underneath so it can take off and land vertically. But part of the problem is that exhaust gases from the underside get sucked up into the engine, gases which contain little oxygen and can cause the jet to lose lift and drop. To solve this long-time problem of vertical ascent and landing jets (the British Harrier Jump Jet has the same problem --- it can sometimes lose lift dangerously and suddenly), Lockheed developed the lift fan, which will be used for the first time in the Joint Strike Fighter. It is a fan, no engine, at the rear of the jet that is connected by an axel to the jet toward the front (jet on the underside of the front). Thus, the underside jet engine toward the front powers the lift of the front and lift in the back using just a fan there in the rear --- a fan powered by axel and gears connected to the lift jet engine toward the front. The result is less exhaust going under the aircraft and hence there is no problem with the aircraft suddenly losing lift during vertical take off and landing as a result of low-oxygen exhaust getting sucked up into the vertical take off jet engine underneath.

All of this is incredibly ambitious, complicated and expensive to develop.

How will Israel be able to develop such things on its own? It looks as if, G-d forbid, this is where Israel is headed, because the political price Israel is paying for arms sales keeps going up.

It is also an issue for supporters of Israel. How do you argue to someone who supports Israeli appeasement that Israel can manage to stand up to American pressure? Again, our sages say, “Know what to answer the non-believer.”

How do you answer those who say Israel must make concessions because of a fear of cut off of aid? We are not only talking about cut off of money, but far more importantly, cut off of arms sales.

How do we answer this?

I’ll close with a story you may have heard. Once there was a king who sent his servant to buy him a fish. The servant went to the market and bought a fish. Unfortunately, the fish turned out to be rotten. The king ordered that the servant must be punished, and he gave the servant a choice of 3 punishments. The servant could pay for the fish, he could eat it, or he could take 50 lashes with a whip.

Welp, in those days money wasn’t too plentiful, so paying for the fish was out. 50 lashes didn’t sound too appealing. So the servant chose to eat the fish.

He ate half the fish, two-thirds, three-fourths, and he is gasping and gagging and he just can’t get the remainder down.

“Look,” said the servant. “I ate nearly all of it.”

“I’m sorry,” said the king. “You must accept one whole punishment.”

Welp, in those days money wasn’t too plentiful, so paying for the fish was out.

So now the servant chose the 50 lashes.

And he was whipped. 20 times. 30 times. 40…45 lashes. And he is bleeding, and in agony and there are welts all over his back, and he just can’t take anymore.

So in the end he had to pay for the fish anyway.

This is the story of Israel today. The US will give Israel aid if it makes suicidal concessions and Israel is not willing to pay the price --- a cut off of military aid --- so it keeps making suicidal concessions to make the US and its Saudi buddies happy.

In the end, Israel may have to accept a cut off of military aid and it would be better to have such a confrontation now, before Israel has already made one land concession after another. In the end, Israel may have to pay the price anyway, so why keep making land concessions to a world that seeks Israel’s destruction anyway?

But how? How does Israel compensate for a loss of arms aid and make its own jets and so forth, when the undertaking is becoming so incredibly ambitious and challenging and expensive and in the end nobody may provide the needed materials, parts, engines and so forth?

Again, “Know what to answer the non-believer.”

So how do you answer this?

[Daniel]

I mentioned this previously to a few religious-zionist friends.

They both said pretty much the same thing: "We don't America. We'll be fine without America. They can get lost. We don't need them."

:confused:

I really, really, do wonder what types of fighter planes, tanks etcetera they want to give the IDF when the US quits. Face it, we're being blackmailed by the US. Well, 'blackmailed' is a big word, but basically they have us under their control. If the US will some day say "give away Chevron or we'll stop giving you arms", we will HAVE to give away Chevron. Doing otherwise is equal to committing suicide.

Israel exists only thanks to America. True, the state was founded without American help, but at this stage, we cannot live without American help. Because the Arabs know that if they attack Israel, America will come to our aid, they don't attack Israel.

America is defending us in the UN. Without America, Israel would no longer have existed: the UN would probably past year have forced grave economic sanctions on Israel because of the security fence. As we know, the UN Security Council (in which the US has veto power) has the right to send in a multinational military force to force countries that contravene UN decisions to comply. Thus, they might just have decided to put together a 200,000 man military force from all over the world under UN flag to come into Israel and break down the security fence. America is our only protection against this. We must do everything to keep them on our side. Without America, there is no more Israel. One year, at most, and game's over.

[Bittul]

No, we don't need America. Israel bought from Chekoslovakia, France, and other countries (including stealing from America, Vekem) before America became our saviour.

[Esrog]

Daniel, this is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is: "Know what to answer the non-believer." Are you to be a nay-sayer too?

You just said:

"Basically they have us under their control. If the US will some day say 'give away Chevron or we'll stop giving you arms', we will HAVE to give away Chevron. Doing otherwise is equal to committing suicide."

Firstly, this is contrary to everything the Rebbe said, and you are saying in effect that "If we don't commit suicide, that's committing suicide."

You then said, a comment that simply does not belong on this website:

"Israel exists only thanks to America."

Israel exists thanks to G-d. Every country in the world, including America has tried to destroy Israel. This included Nixon, who was packing the Republican National Committee with Nazis and wouldn't give arms to Israel during the '73 Yom Kippur War. It included the United States under Johnson, who parked the SS Liberty spy ship outside Israel just before the 6-Day War in '67, which was decoding secret Israeli military communications and passing the most sensitive, vital information by radio over to the Arabs. Every single American president, including Truman, either failed to help in vital ways or directly stabbed Israel in the back. Even Reagan, who may have personally been pro-Israel, had Caspar Weinberger under him working to sabotage Israel. America does not support Israel. America supports America. Read "The Secret War Against The Jews" by John Loftus and Mark Aarons and you will see that behind the scenes there has been constant agitation by the US to destroy Israel, especially from the US intelligence community which is full of ex-Nazis.

Please don't give us your "Face it, America is G-d" garbage. You are not saying that? Yes you are. You also said, "America is our only protection."

Your post is a faithless post and does not belong on a Chabad website. You also said America is our only defense in the UN. The fact is that the UN constantly attacks Israel and the US abstains.

It is prophesied that all the nations will turn on Israel and that then G-d will fight for Israel and it will be a great victory and all the world will see the hand of Hashem in Israel's survival against the world.

If there is to be no help from the world, so be it. I was merely asking if there is a practical answer to those of little faith such as yourself, what I call "operational atheists" or "or functional atheists." In the final analysis your friends are right. Help will come from somewhere else if America continues to abandon Israel. Oh yes, America has already largely abandoned Israel. Rice is constantly demanding more suicide from Israel. Israel just made huge concessions and Rice is rushing to say it's not enough. I was seeking serious comments from Chabad Talk participants on how Israeli leaders can turn faith into practical reality on the ground. If there are no such comments, then we will simply have to await the day when the next war occurs and watch the miracle, because for sure, G-d will save Israel, whether you worship America or not.

I am seeking a way to answer the non-believers with some practical observations supporting faith. That's the subject of this thread, not, "Boo hoo! America is G-d!"

Any serious responses to my query?

[Bittul]

Esrog, I just gave you one. Weapons can be bought on the black market. They can be purchased from other countries. That is all if pressure from Aipac fails in the US.

[Esrog]

Very good points, Bittul! I had forgotten about that! Yes, Israel's arms smuggling network is well-chronicled in "The Pledge," by Leonard Slater. They did it all in the US while the US wouldn't sell arms to Israel. Also, in the Yom Kippur War, according to "The Secret War Against the Jews" General Alexander Haig disobeyed his superiors and gave Israel anti-tank missiles. He never got in trouble for it either. He just went ahead and shipped these very sophisticated missiles to Israel while his superiors were telling him no arms to Israel.

In the case of the UN I should mention that they only voted for the creation of the state of Israel because supporters of Israel were blackmailing Nazi-backer Nelson Rockefeller, who had vast financial power in Latin America and under threat of exposure for his shipping oil to ******, yemach shemo, he twisted the arms of several Latin American junta governments and got them to back Israel in the UN partition vote in '47. (Again according to the massively researched and documented "The Secret War Against the Jews" based on thousands of declassified documents and Freedom of Information Act disclosures.) Otherwise the votes would not have been there in the UN to support Israel, even after the Holocaust. In truth, the world just didn't care even in the face of the Holocaust even after the full truth came out with the liberation of the death camps.

As for AIPACE, they are being targeted by the same Nazis in the US intelligence community who want to destroy Israel. They have already caved under this pressure, unfortunately.

Another point from "The Secret War Against The Jews" --- One American after another has been blackmailed to get support for Israel, two can play the blackmail game. Topping this list was Nixon himself, who was supporting Nazis for years and the Israelis for a time used him under pressure of this blackmail. Another person being blackmailed was James Angleton, CIA official who had Nazi ties and was pro-Israel after being blackmailed. Another person being blackmailed was German Nazi General Reinhard Gehlen, who after WWII became head of German intelligence. He was importing uranium into Germany after WWII to develop nuclear weapons (yes, Deutschland apparently now has the potential to make atomic bombs, folks...) and he was also shipping biological weapons to the Arabs. The Israelis found out about it and began blackmailing him. As a result, Gehlen was forced to give a large portion of his uranium to Israel and that's how Israel got the uranium for its French-supplied nuclear reactor that eventually built atomic bombs.

Incidentally, according to the book, "Triple Cross" by Louis Toscano, about Israel's atom bomb, Israel has 600 atomic weapons, including atomic land mines capable of wiping out a whole enemy army in one fell swoop. Israel also has the hydrogen bomb. Israel also has neutron bombs, which aren't even in the US and Russian arsenals (by agreement---they could build them easily if they wanted). The neutron bomb is the ideal nuclear weapon for the Middle East (if there is such a thing as an ideal nuclear weapon). It causes little or no property damage and basically just blankets a city with radiation that dissipates after only a few days. So it kills the people but leaves the property intact, so that the invading army can arrive in less than a week and take over the city. Israel had jets fueled up and ready to go, with neutron bombs on board, ready to destroy Iraq if the Iraqi scud missiles in the first Gulf war had caused major loss of Israeli life.

So obviously the point is, that Israel already has the power to defend itself. We're simply quibbling over the weapon of choice, as it were.

[Esrog]

Another useful point I could make is that designing weapons is much more expensive than “reverse engineering” weapons --- taking someone’s else’s weapon apart and figuring out how it works. Then you can add your own improvements and make it better yet when you make your own. For instance, when the atomic bomb was first developed, the cost was astronomical. They had to make what is today called a “plutonium pit” --- a hollow shell made out of plutonium. Initially they didn’t know which metal to use for that, plutonium or uranium. Elaborate research went into deciding just that question. Today everyone has heard of a “plutonium pit.” There are designs of atomic bombs shown in dictionaries and the “How And Why Wonder Book Of Atomic Energy” --- a children’s book. Someone wanting to make a nuclear weapon doesn’t need to do all that expensive research to know that you need plutonium for the best type of fission atomic bomb.

A case in point about reverse engineering: In advance of the ’67 Six Day War, Israel wanted to know how the Soviet MIG jet fighters worked. So they blackmailed an Iraqi jet fighter pilot into stealing one for him. He flew it right out of Iraqi airspace and into Israel. (The Israelis not only blackmailed him, afterward they compensated him and his family with a decent job and apartment in Israel and good health care.) In fact, Israel shared the technological knowledge they gained from the MIG with the US. The US should be grateful to Israel and not the other way round because one Soviet weapon after another was transferred to the Israelis and then given over to the US, without which the US might never have won the Cold War.

Some may recall that after the ’67 war Nasser was demanding that Russia give him more arms. Kruschev reportedly quipped to him, “Sure! How many does General Dayan want?” Because the Israelis had seized so many Arab weapons, made in Russia.

The Israelis even seized an Arab SAM missile site (during peacetime). They literally picked up the whole SAM missile site with helicopters and flew it back to Israel.

In the case of the MIG they stole, the Israelis also solved a critical question about the MIGs when they captured it. American jets were made of lightweight and super-strong titanium, but Soviet jets were made of steel. How could the Soviets keep the weight down in their jets when they were using the relatively heavy steel? But when the Israelis stole the MIG and took it apart (reverse engineered it) they discovered that the MIG was not put together with steel bolts. Rather, the Soviets had developed an advanced steel welding technology that produced extremely secure welds (better than in the west) and thus did not need to include in the MIG the relatively heavy bolts all over the place.

All such knowledge makes it possible to make your own weapons for a fraction of the cost of developing one from scratch. So the idea that the Joint Strike Fighter is very expensive to develop is only part of the picture. Israel will always have ways of getting its hands on one, or on parts of one, either above board or through alternate methods. They can learn how it’s made one way or another and make something of their own better for a fraction of the original development cost. This is what you can do when, unlike the Arabs, you have a highly literate, educated country full of scientists.

[Daniel]

You're seriously infected with Zionistic nationalism.

G-d is not with Israel. Without American support in the UN, there would now be a multinational UN force of something like 200,000 soldiers in Israel to dismantle the security fence.

I said America is G-d? :rolleyes: Yeah, right. You're telling me Theodor Herzl is G-d. If I have to choose between the Founding Fathers of the USA and Theodor Herzl, I'll follow the Founding Fathers. At least they were not haters of religion who wanted to destroy Judaism, like Herzl wanted.

Please forgive me for living in the Real World and not in some Zionist dream in which the Zionist state is living under the personal protection of G-d.

Please read the following.
If Establishing a Jewish State is assur, why did Hashem allow it to happen? (and: were the wars nissim?) (http://zionismquestions.blogspot.com/#19)
http://zionismquestions.blogspot.com/#19

Also, it is forbidden to rely on miracles. You say, "nothing will happen to Israel, because G-d is there for us." That's absolute nonsense. Even if this were true, you're supposed to take care of yourself. It's the same reason for why you call an ambulance when someone has a heart attack. Sure, we say Tehilim too, but first of all we call an ambulance. We don't count on Divine Assistance to keep the patient alive. We call an ambulance.

Now, please explain to me how Israel will survive when the UN implements a total arms and economic boycott against Israel. Meaning that it is forbidden for any UN member to sell arms or conduct trade with Israel, and any member state that violates these rules will face sanctions of its own. :rolleyes:

You want to drag us into a war in which millions are going to be killed, or something like that? :confused:

[Esrog]

Daniel, you just said, "G-d is not with Israel." That is what you just said. That is the exact opposite of what the Rebbe said. He said G-d's eyes are on Israel constantly. He also said when scud missles were falling, that Israel was the safest place. You are trying to convince us to be anti-Israel on anti-Zionist grounds. You know nothing about the Rebbe's position, nothing about Chabad. You are simply here to disrupt those who support Israel. It's not my fault you're poorly trained.

[Daniel]

Daniel, you just said, "G-d is not with Israel." That is what you just said. That is the exact opposite of what the Rebbe said. He said G-d's eyes are on Israel constantly. He also said when scud missles were falling, that Israel was the safest place. You are trying to convince us to be anti-Israel on anti-Zionist grounds. You know nothing about the Rebbe's position, nothing about Chabad. You are simply here to disrupt those who support Israel. It's not my fault you're poorly trained.

So? I'm only beginning to get interested in Lubavitcher philosophy; I'm not (yet) a full and official Member Of The Movement. I'm not required to follow every single word of the Rebbe. I still have to decide about that, and in fact, his pro-Israel stance is what keeps me in doubt as to whether I shouldn't start learning more about Satmar (Antwerp is only 200 km away from here).

I do not accept the idea that G-d is with a bunch of secular Zionists who try to punish Jews for being religious. I don't think the Rebbe Rashab would have disagreed with me.

If you read the link, you'll see why the theory that G-d assisted the Zionists in their wars is total nonsense.

Let me quote part of it.

Throughout history, evil doers have had miracles performed for them. I remember shortly after the Gulf War I was in Israel attending a Kiruv session, where a representative from one of the largest Baalei Teshuva Yeshivos spoke for a group of non-frum Jews.

He spoke about the "Nissim" of how the scuds fall on Israel but didn't kill anyone, and that they should be impressed by this.

It was the wrong thing to say, and he got his head handed to him. A little guy with a mustache visiting Israel from Australia raised his hand and said that before coming to Israel he was visiting Saudi Arabia, and there he attended an Arab "kiruv" session, where they also spoke about "miracles."

They mentioned a time where Arafat's little private plane crashed, blew up, and killed every single one of the passengers except him. He walked out of the wreck. (I remember when this happened - it was about 1990).

There were numerous such incidents where Arafat was miraculously saved from his blown up boat, and where he evaded a fleet of fighter jets by losing them by driving away in a Volkswagon.

At least some of these stories I know to be true.

So what's the point?

The Arabs' point was "See? G-d is on our side!"

We don't need miracles. I don't need miracles to have faith. Some people, like the Religious Zionists, would be completely lost if there were no 'miracles' like the 'miracles' of the wars. Compared to them, I feel that I have reached a higher level. I have faith in G-d without needing any miracles. I've been discussing with a xtian missionary for a while, and he showed me websites full of xtian 'miracles' that proved that Yoshe y"sh was the Messiah r"l.
I told him I wasn't interested. I don't care about miracles. I care about what's right here in front of my eyes.

[Daniel]

Esrog, I just gave you one. Weapons can be bought on the black market. They can be purchased from other countries. That is all if pressure from Aipac fails in the US.

That's true, definitely. But. Just a few problems.

1) When there is an economic boycott against your country, all of these 'other countries' will not sell you anything, from toothbrushes to missiles, from diapers to tanks. Otherwise, they'll face UN sanctions themselves. America has prevented this from happening so far.

2) You cannot buy highly sophisticated weapons with which to outfit an entire army on the black market, because the supply there isn't all that big and it's way too expensive. Look, buying a single old Russian tank on the black market is possible. Buying an American-made Abrams tank is a lot more difficult. But buying enough brand-new tanks to supply an entire army is impossible.

3) Last but not least, the Great Question: What are you going to pay with? Do you expect those 'other countries' or black market arms sellers to provide you with a couple of thousand of rifles, a few hundred tanks, jet fighters and millions of bullets for free?
Let's see. America has provided Israel with $84 BILLION of financial aid just between 1949 and 1997. The vast majority of that money after 1974; Israel received over $ 80 billion since 1974. And by the end of 2005 we will have received a total of $96.7 BILLION dollars from America.
America provides Israel with about $2 BILLION of purely military aid per year.
America sends about 17% of all of the money for foreign aid to Israel.

Between 1994 and 2001 the US sent Israel: 64,744 M-16A1 rifles; 2,469 M-204 grenade launchers; 1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns; a LOT of .30, .50 and 20mm ammunition, all of this for free.

Now, please tell me, with what money will you pay, let's say, China (Israel's most likely arms partner in this doom scenario) for its arms deliveries?

Oh, right, G-d will shower huge piles of $100 dollar bills on Israel? :rolleyes:

[Bittul]

Daniel, are you at all familiar with the history of Israel, specifically the military and espionage history? Are you denying that this is how Israel acquired its weaponry?

[Daniel]

Daniel, are you at all familiar with the history of Israel, specifically the military and espionage history? Are you denying that this is how Israel acquired its weaponry?

2005 isn't 1948.

The political situation has changed slightly. That's all I need to say.

Here in the Netherlands, about 45% of parliament supports a complete boycott of Israel, both economic and military, and in any other way. Israel is viewed as a parasite state that commits genocide on the innocent Palestinians. Israel is a terrorist state that attacks and kills innocent unarmed youths without mercy.

Circa 65% of the Dutch people support that view.

And in France, Italy, the UK, Spain, the Scandinavian countries, and Eastern Europe, it's even worse.

Tell me. From which country will Israel get free weapons when the whole world hates us and a huge trade embargo is on us? Which country is voluntarily going to ignore UN sanctions and send us free arms when the UN forbids them from doing so?

[Bittul]

I'm sorry Daniel, but you are really showing a lack of knowledge of the history I asked you of. Are you aware than no one gave Israel free weapons in 1948?

[Maskil]

Stalin, via Chechoslovakia, gave Israel weapons in 1948 at wholesale or better than wholsale prices. This is well-known.

[Daniel]

Stalin, via Chechoslovakia, gave Israel weapons in 1948 at wholesale or better than wholsale prices. This is well-known.

Yes. I lived in Prague for half a year recently. On the old official Jewish community building, next to the Alt-Neu Shul, is a plaque noting how Czechoslovakia pretty much helped Israel survive during the 1948 war by providing weapons, especially for the Air Force. Without the Czechs, there would be no Israel.

My point is that we do not have a modern-day equivalent of the Czechs in 1948.

Without America, we will not have the money to buy weapons, and there is no country that is going to provide us with free weapons like the Czechs did in 1948. I have yet to see anyone come up with an argument against this.

[Bittul]

My asumption after the last post is that you are both an arms dealer and an Israeli finance minister to know both of the assertions that you made.

[Daniel]

My asumption after the last post is that you are both an arms dealer and an Israeli finance minister to know both of the assertions that you made.

I still haven't seen any serious arguments.

Do you think Israel secretly has a financial reserve of a few hundred billion dollars, just in case America leaves us on our own?

[Bittul]

Daniel, I don't sit in a coffee shop or a pizza parlor or a Yeshiva dining room trying to solve world problems. I know that there is never only one solution to a problem, I know that the Rebbe promised that if Israel stands strong America will never force its will on them, and on top of that history has shown what I said, while you only have airy ideas of what might be and what you think is. No, there is no serious argument here. The really decisive factor is what the Rebbe said. What we are discussing is lechadude, sharpening of the minds if you will. But if you take it seriously then I'll bow out, and just remind you that the Rebbe thought otherwise.

[Chabad-Yudele]

http://www.israpundit.com/archives/2005/08/israel_alone.php#comments