Rav Yishmael

[noahidelaws]

How is it that we find that a great Tanna was named Yishma'el, if Yishma'el was a rasha (though he ultimately did Teshuva)? Also, we don't find that anyone follows that example and calls their children by this name.

[Gevurah]

taka maybe I should look it up...

even a Grosse Litvak from Lakewood does not know this answer...
see

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2004/12/15/bullseye/

[Milhouse]

How is it that we find that a great Tanna was named Yishma'el, if Yishma'el was a rasha (though he ultimately did Teshuva)? Teshuvaso betzido: he ultimately did teshuvah, and the Torah recognised him as a ben Avraham, in the same category as Yitzchak, though subordinate to him. The classic example of a name that is never used, because it was that of a rasha, is Chiel, who, so far as we know, never did teshuva. Also, we don't find that anyone follows that example and calls their children by this name. There are other names from Tanach and gemara that seem to have fallen into disuse over time. You were named after a great tzaddik, but how many other (FFB) people have you ever heard of with your name? There are fashions in these things. Even some names that were used as recently as 100 years ago have gone out of fashion: how many Tzadoks do you know?

[Gevurah]

i KNOW SEVERAL TZADOKS!

actually frased that way, this is in a different case spoken about by the Chasam Sofer who points out that how could Korach's parents call him Korach when one of the Edomite kings had that name.. The CS also states that how could Shaul's parents call him that also as that was another one of the those kings and that Shmuel's parents at least stuck a mem in for a shinui..

However for Yishmael... there was more than Yishmael ben Elisha the most famous Tanna..a do a search... I searched and did not find anyone giving an answer ...I would think that Reuven Margolies addresses this sort of topic in one of his sefarim but the sefer is miles away from me ;) and with Otzar770 down :( who knows if the Rebbe did....

[Hiskashrus]

while wer'e on the subject, i don't really know how much of an importance this is to the thread, but there's a guy in KC that's called nimrod - who became a BT - he asked the rebbe what to do about his name to which he answered that he should keep it.

of course, many famous rishonim and achronim have some names that we would never think of calling anyone - for example the rashba - who is shlomo ben aderes - how many people are called aderes? or maimon - how many people have the first name "maimon".

of course, any name is a valid name - hence even if someone was called chiel (due to my amoratzus, i don't know who he was) he would still be able to keep that name (although i don't see why he wouldn't change it)

[mordechai7215]

I know that sefardim use the name maimon.

[Hiskashrus]

as a first name?

[The Eighth King]

chiel (due to my amoratzus, i don't know who he wasMaybe a reference to Melachim Aleph 15:34

[Gevurah]

RR writes see Yoma 38b and tosfos there which asks Noahkites' question exactly and gives the answer above and then RR says see Shabbas 12b where R. Yishmael behaves in general with the same respect as Yishmael who at the end of his life did not behave with big gayva and let Yitzhak be the Rosh at the kevurah.

[Milhouse]

Maybe a reference to Melachim Aleph 15:34 You mean 16:34 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09a16.htm#34). Unless you count the chapters from zero :-)

Chiel was the ultimate bedavkanik. He knew what penalty was prophesied for his sin, and he saw the prophecy coming true before his eyes, and still continued. He was so dedicated to his aveira that he willingly paid an enormous price for it — a true aveira lishmah!

It is written (I'm not sure where) that if someone is commonly called Chiel, he can safely assume that that is not his real name, because his parents would never have named him after that rasha, so his real name must be Yechiel. Nowadays, after the Zionists of the last century revived all sorts of strange names from Tanach, including those of such notorious people as Nimrod and Ataliah YMSh, I don't think this chazakah can be relied on any more.

[mordechai7215]

as a first name?
yes, as a first name.

[Rabbiz]

Chiel was the ultimate bedavkanik. He knew what penalty was prophesied for his sin, and he saw the prophecy coming true before his eyes, and still continued. He was so dedicated to his aveira that he willingly paid an enormous price for it — a true aveira lishmah!


see what Rav Nachman Bar Yitzchok has to say about a true avera lishma!:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת הוריות דף י עמוד ב
אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק: גדולה עבירה לשמה ממצוה שלא לשמה

[Hiskashrus]

it's simple, doing an aveira lishma is done with more emunah - he has complete emunah in hashem and sees that hashem will punish him, but he doesn't care..

he is only doing because of emunah, whereas someone doing a mitzvah lishma has the person's good involved - he will enjoy it at the end of the day - and even when he does the mitzvah שכר מצוה מצוה