issues with matan Torah

[saraf]

ok im very confused about something really basic in judaism. am hoping some wise people at there can help me out

What did Moshe learn at har sinai and when did he tell it to the jews.

The oft quoted answer is he learnt the entire Torah as we know it including 613 mitzvos and taught it to the jews slowly throughout the course of their sojourn in the desert

now my questions
1. if moshe learnt the entire Torah including the events and stories at sinai wouldnt he have learnt in advance about his own aveirah of hitting/getting angry at rock? so much for bechirah chofshis
2. i must question the very premise that all 613 mitzvos were given at har sinai we do many mitzvos based on incidents from before har sinai eg bris milah gid hanshe what point is there in postulating that they were repeated at har sinai, when moshe never repeated them to the jews and we keep these mitzvos because they were commanded earlier

i have many more questions on this topic but ill see how everyone goes with these two

[why]

Are you saying Moshe did an aveira??????
Advice - go learn that parsha inside with all the mefarshim. espeacially Ohr Hachaim.
Second - B4 Matan Torah we had Torah and mitzvos -see the thread on pesach before matan Torah. After Matan Torah though, Gashnius (physical stuff) was able 2 be used 4 and changed over 2 ruchnius (spiritual stuff). In very short.
Bli neder I could write more another time.

[ykh]

The whole concept of mitzvoh is different after mattan Toiro. We observe bris miloh because it was given to us through Moishe Rabbeinu from mount Sinai, not because Avrohom avinu was commanded. Before it was nice family tradition, that stressed complete dedication to Hashem by our forefathers, first of all Avrohom Avinu. Only at the matan Toiri we got mitzvos in the sense they have now - connection between us and Hashem in both directions - from us to Hashem and from Hashem to us.
Regarding Moishe Rabbeinu getting the whole Toiro, not necessarily teh instructions came down all in revealed way, most of it was included into "smaller text", as evident fom the story of Moishe Rabbeinu being present at the lesson by Rabbi Akivo, who derived laws from the crowns of the letters in seifer Toiro, the laws, that Moishe Rabbeinu was not aware of.

[saraf]

This is not getting any clearer!

what was moishe told on har sinai.

Option 1.
was it the torah as we have it today ie from bereishis till yisroel if so thats fine so he would have been told about the mitzvah of milah but only in the context of historically this being commanded to avraham (if you look in sefer hamitzvbos eg chinuch the source of mitzvas milah is clearly in parshas lech lcha before matan torah). we are still doing it based on the original command to avraham not based on anew command to moshe. and if moishe was indeed told whole torah on sianii this includes incidents and stories so moshes whole journey in the desert was just following a script he had heard at har sinai he was just going through the motions

Option 2.
now if you want to say that at har sinai moishe was reinstructed all mitzvos including milah this is at odds with the torah which doesnt record any repetition of mitzvas milah at all after matan torah.

bear in mind there is a clear maamer chazal that seems to contradict what you people have been syaing that every mitzvoh was commanded afresh at matan torah. see snahedrin 59a
"any pre siaitic law which was not repeated at har sinai applies solely to jews and not noahides"

[why]

Reread my post.

[saraf]

why. unfortunatly your post dosnt adress my question at all. my question has nothing to do with moishe doing an aveirah i just used that as an example
and my question has nothing to do with difference between mitzvos before matan torah and after, (i think the difference you mentioned re gashmiyus ruchniyus is universally known and accepted)

im simply asking what was taught to moishe at har sinai

In fact the ignorance on this subject astounds me (my own ignorance included) Its accepted as one of the tennants of jewish faith that the whole torah was given to moshe at har sinai including all taryag mitzvos. yet such a notion seems to me to be implausable and contradicted within chazal as well. (as expressed in my previous post)

[Atzmus]

the ignorance on the subject is due to an oversight in the classical yeshivah education for example they teach gemarah but not how they the gemara came to exist etc

your questions are important. As it turns out i teach this subject so i have grappled with these issues myself. The answers can be found in the hakdamah of the rambam to pirush hamishnayos or in toras shlaimah

Moishe was taught everything on har sinai, Torah shebichsav Torah shebaal peh. this includes the entire torah as we know it including megillas esther and other stories in torah shebichsav. also including teshuvos that were printed fifty years ago. If its Torahs emes moshe was taught it, you name it he learnt it.

Howver there is an important proviso. The main things such as the taryag Mitzvos and thier pirushim he was taught openly. IE he was taught the klollim. within the klollim lay beheelem all the protim. so although he didnt consioucly learn them (there wasnt the physical time even if he didnt sleep or eat) beheelem moishe was aware of every future aspect of torah includinmg stories and teshuvos etc. Since it was beheelem howvere if i were to think up anovel thought in torah it would be considered a chidush ( as oppose to a regurgitation of somthing moishe was taught) beacuse im the first to have brought it into conscious thought begilui.

This idea applies to future chiddushim and perhaps can be applied to your question as well. the incident with the rock is achelek of torah so moishe would have learnt it on siani. NTL since its not a major aspect in that its not one of the taryag mitzvos theres every chance it was included beheelem rather then taught consiously.

Therfore when moishe went through the story he was living it for the first time (consciously at least). After the incident moishe sat down to record the event and include it in torah and hashem dictated to moishe the exact words and language in which to write it. The same applies to the mitzvos that were commanded to the yidden in desert (even though he heard them on har siani he recorded them later) Just before he died moishe compiled all the details put togethre the torah and wrote the entire torah for each of the shevatim. This is the torah we have today ( we hope :tongue: )

This is basic outline if you want detalis maareh mekomos just give a holler. Oh and if anyone has any haoros just give a holler as well.

[why]

why. unfortunatly your post dosnt adress my question at all. my question has nothing to do with moishe doing an aveirah i just used that as an example
and my question has nothing to do with difference between mitzvos before matan torah and after, (i think the difference you mentioned re gashmiyus ruchniyus is universally known and accepted)

im simply asking what was taught to moishe at har sinai

In fact the ignorance on this subject astounds me (my own ignorance included) Its accepted as one of the tennants of jewish faith that the whole torah was given to moshe at har sinai including all taryag mitzvos. yet such a notion seems to me to be implausable and contradicted within chazal as well. (as expressed in my previous post)

Saraf, I just wanna let you know that I asked the same question. I gave you the answer I got.
#1 is because before matan Torah, Torah was learnt in a different way. Not as a story, rather as Torah, deep lofty concepts. They learnt the pnimius, so when they learnt that Moshe hit the rock - they didn't learn it in the same way as we do. They didn't see it as a gashmiusdike accurance. they learnt the chassidus of it, what it really meant.
#2 When Avraham Avinu (before Matan Torah) put on teffillin he hrew them out after. it wasn't kadosh. We, after Matan Torah now have the ability to take that physical stuff and make it holy. Old teffilin go in a sheimus box.
With this, together with atzmus's explanation, there is no question.

[Gevurah]

Saraf

I first heard this question many years ago ....
The Esoteric answer is that he was given all of the letters on Sinai and they formed words as the Yiddin moved on until on his last day of his life the laST LETTERS formed words after he died..after all if literally it says Moshe died how did he write the rest otherwise...
Atzmus gives a more complex version of this answer...