Regards from Israel

[Harvard]

Hi Everybody,

My name is Yair and I've been born and raised in Israel. Currently, I live nearby Tel Aviv.

I'd be happy to take part in this forum and answer your questions regarding Israel and the Jewish life in the country.

Best,

Yair

[Aaronke]

Interesting! Did you hear about Daniel Gomez HY"D? He fell in Lebanon on the last day of the war last summer. He was a helicopter pilot and was related to me (I won't say how since I want to remain anonymous).

[noahidelaws]

I have a question about Jewish life in the Holy Land: How is it that people consistently put up with such frequent, intense horrendous, evil betrayal from their "leaders"? What happened to their brains?

[Bittul]

What happened to the brains of the people in Soviet Russia?

[noahidelaws]

Indeed, that's a most correct comparison.

[Harvard]

Hi Aaronke,

Indeed, I've heard about him, he was all over the news. I think that the Jewish people in Israel has this thing in common: they all mourn for every soldier who is killed and for every jewish person that dies.
In my opinion, that differs us from other nations. There's a good article, written by Efraim Kishon Z"L during the 70's, in which he claims that the Egyptians (it was during the hostility period between the countries) lies to themselves and ignore their deaths, while the israelis have much higher moral values.

Yair

[noahidelaws]

Really? Maybe they mourn the death of soldiers (who are gov't property), but what about mourning the deaths of subhuman "settlers"? You won't see much of that.

(Large numbers of) Jews in Eretz Yisrael don't ignore the deaths of Jews?! What planet are you living on?? The traitors gave the murderers money, land, guns, and legitimacy, which the enemy used to murder many more Jews, and then the people voted for the traitors again, and that's not called ignoring the deaths of Jews?!

They exhibit ... "respect for Jewish life"?? "Moral values"?? Do you call voting for parties that promise to surrender vast (or even small) amounts of money, land, guns, and legitimacy to vile mass murderers showing "respect for Jewish life" and "moral values"?! Again, what happened to their brains? You didn't answer my question. Apparently you answer questions selectively.

[Frumkite]

Really? Maybe they mourn the death of soldiers (who are gov't property), but what about mourning the deaths of subhuman "settlers"? You won't see much of that.

(Large numbers of) Jews in Eretz Yisrael don't ignore the deaths of Jews?! What planet are you living on?? The traitors gave the murderers money, land, guns, and legitimacy, which the enemy used to murder many more Jews, and then the people voted for the traitors again, and that's not called ignoring the deaths of Jews?!

They exhibit ... "respect for Jewish life"?? "Moral values"?? Do you call voting for parties that promise to surrender vast (or even small) amounts of money, land, guns, and legitimacy to vile mass murderers showing "respect for Jewish life" and "moral values"?! Again, what happened to their brains? You didn't answer my question. Apparently you answer questions selectively.
I don't think he was trying to ignore your question. He is observing a true dichotomy, mourning over every soldier does take place, with pix of them on the front pages. Do the US papers have stories including pix of every US soldier that fell in Iraq? At the same time, the settlers are demonized and, even with regard to the soldiers, the policies that led to their deaths are ignored.

So it's a complicated situation in which most Israelis are not connecting the dots and realizing that their mourning over fallen soldiers is a waste of time if they're not prepared to elect leaders who will protect the soldiers who are still alive (kind of like Peres, YMSh, attending a commemeroration of the Shoa while setting the groundwork for another shoa, chas v'shalom).

This is why it's so important for settlers to stop using kedushat ha'aretz as their argument against OSLO and adopt the rebbe's approach of pikuach nefesh, to drive home to israelis what's at stake (although it's becoming more and more clear even to the Israelis with their heads in the sand where more land concessions are headed - to a war that Israel can't win, as the foreign armies will be starting with their tanks overlookin Tel Aviv & JM from a few kilometers away).

[noahidelaws]

He answered Aaronke's question, but not mine. He did ignore it.

[JewishHiphop]

I don't think he was trying to ignore your question. He is observing a true dichotomy, mourning over every soldier does take place, with pix of them on the front pages. Do the US papers have stories including pix of every US soldier that fell in Iraq? At the same time, the settlers are demonized and, even with regard to the soldiers, the policies that led to their deaths are ignored.

So it's a complicated situation in which most Israelis are not connecting the dots and realizing that their mourning over fallen soldiers is a waste of time if they're not prepared to elect leaders who will protect the soldiers who are still alive (kind of like Peres, YMSh, attending a commemeroration of the Shoa while setting the groundwork for another shoa, chas v'shalom).

This is why it's so important for settlers to stop using kedushat ha'aretz as their argument against OSLO and adopt the rebbe's approach of pikuach nefesh, to drive home to israelis what's at stake (although it's becoming more and more clear even to the Israelis with their heads in the sand where more land concessions are headed - to a war that Israel can't win, as the foreign armies will be starting with their tanks overlookin Tel Aviv & JM from a few kilometers away).
Frumkite, with all due respect to you, as a Lubavitcher chossid, how can you write ym'sh about a Jew, in light of the Rebbe's teachings about Ahavat Chinam in our generation?
Ahavat Chinam in our generation even for people in the category of "moiser" and similar, see for example Likutei Sichot 1:133, 2:620, 27:297, 38:221 and Igrot Kodesh 4:440
www.otzar770.com (http://www.otzar770.com/)

Also, Rebbe Nachman of Breslov teaches (and similar is taught in the Rebbe's sicha in Likutei Sichot, Shemot 36:1 for example) that part of the Mitzvah of belief in Hashem includes thinking and speaking in a manner that reflects that emunah and bitachon. I know it is easy for me to say, since I am in Canada and you are in Israel, but - I will say it anyways - there is no such thing as a war that Israel can't win. With G*d everything is possible.

[Bittul]

Frumkite, with all due respect to you, as a Lubavitcher chossid, how can you write ym'sh about a Jew,
Frumkite is not a Lubavitcher Chossid.

[magdiel]

Frumkite is not a Lubavitcher Chossid.
He/she claims to be one. how can you poselHim/Her?

[Bittul]

Based on the things that they write. And shouldn't it be Him/Her/It?

[noahidelaws]

The Frierdiker Rebbe said yemach shemo about the yevsektzia. This mafia is the modern-day yevsektzia. Of course ym"sh is appropriate.

I know Frumkite personally. He is a Lubavitcher Chossid. Maybe one who still has a lot to learn about limmud and darkei haChasidus, but then, don't we all. Anyway, let's stick to the topic.

[Torah613]

Noah - please stop your extrapolations. In all the sichos of the Rebbe about EY etc. (that you claim to follow and know), he never used such language. Just write "I, Noah, with my shikul hadaas, and superior Torah knowledge who is יודע דעת עליון to know what the should be said today even though we never heard it from the Rebbe, feel that such language should be used".

[Frumkite]

I know Frumkite personally. He is a Lubavitcher Chossid.
Don't worry NL, I'll pull my hat down to my eyes, turn the brim down to my nose, sleep till noon, eat a sandwich, and then go into the beis hamikdash and run circles with the Moshiach flag for an hour before beginning shachrit, just to make Bittul happy.

Every mishichist I know is far more comfortable with such a person than with a halachic Jew keeping chabad minhagim and awaiting the Moshiach whoever he may be.

[Bittul]

We've been on this merry go round before, so Jewish, I will just say: Kite previously posted disrespectfully about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, which makes it no surprise that he posted the language you pointed out.

[JewishHiphop]

Based on the things that they write. And shouldn't it be Him/Her/It?
Do you think the Rebbe would approve of this statment?

[JewishHiphop]

The Frierdiker Rebbe said yemach shemo about the yevsektzia. This mafia is the modern-day yevsektzia. Of course ym"sh is appropriate.

I know Frumkite personally. He is a Lubavitcher Chossid. Maybe one who still has a lot to learn about limmud and darkei haChasidus, but then, don't we all. Anyway, let's stick to the topic.
Chazal taught us that 'dabar echad ledor' meaning one leader per generation. What the Previous Rebbe did in the previous generation of Chabad cannot be brought as a proof of what the Rebbe's teachings are for this current generation (I.e. the 7th and final generation of the exile)

If our Rebbe did not say ym'sh about any Jews in our generation, while he explicitly taught that one should do the opposite (in the sources cited above, for example) then it would seem to me, imho, that any one who cares to consider themself a Lubavitcher would be obligated to follow the directives of the Rebbe of this generation.

NL and Frumkite, I challenge you to bring us even one single source indicating that our Rebbe ever encouraged someone to say yms'h about any Jew in our generation.

Granted, the Torah provides for self defence and similar, but nowhere does it call for the hatred of a fellow Jew who (even if he becomes a rasha gamur) has inherited a Divine Neshama that is an entire world and will form a crown for the Ribbono Shel Olam in the Olam HaBa, iy'H.

See Tanya chapter 32 where the Admor HaZaken writes that one should hate the evil that has attached itself to the person, but not to hate the person (I.e. soul) itself.

[Bittul]

Do you think the Rebbe would approve of this statment?
What was there not to approve of?

[tzfas]

bichlal - i might be wrong, but based on what i've heard and know so far - the FR used the term yimach shemom on the yevsektzia as an organization, i don't think he ever used it on a specific person.

even if the comparison of the yevsektzia ym"s to the current israeli goverments is correct, (which is a discussion that i will leave to the smarter and wiser than me), i do not think that the term ym"s on a specific jew is allowed. how could you? based on everything the Rebbe teaches us how is it possible?

[Torah613]

And not on a specific person (like referring to a govt) the Rebbe did use such an expression when the issue was yidden?

[noahidelaws]

Tsfas: It's one thing to debate about whether it's appropriate and it's following loshon haRav, as Torah613 is arguing (and making a valid point). But "not allowed"?! Where do you get that from? Yemach shmo/m is an expression used (also) about rishei Yisroel by gedolei Yisroel. Deal with it. And the distinction between an individual and a group is observed.

Also, if you were a victim of such people, I doubt you'd have these qualms about such langauge.

Also, see the end of Tanya ch. 32 (yes, the one about ahavas Yisroel): "tachlis sinoh seneisim."

[tzfas]

since when is tachlis sin'oh sneisim the same as shem reshoim yirkov of maseches yuma? and certainly not the same as mechias hashem.

i've got a question, before you started to brand around titles like that did you check up the din?

(sin'oh you could probably have, based on that tanya. espaecially in light of the Rebbe's biur that it reffers to masniim to other yiden, but to extrapolate to mechias hashem for that you must have breite pleitzes.)

i don't know you, but you seem to be someone who paskens by hergesh not by klolei hhahalacha.

[magdiel]

since when is tachlis sin'oh sneisim the same as shem reshoim yirkov of maseches yuma? and certainly not the same as mechias hashem.

i've got a question, before you started to brand around titles like that did you check up the din?

(sin'oh you could probably have, based on that tanya. espaecially in light of the Rebbe's biur that it reffers to masniim to other yiden, but to extrapolate to mechias hashem for that you must have breite pleitzes.)

i don't know you, but you seem to be someone who paskens by hergesh not by klolei hhahalacha.
I remember a story where someone came to the Rebbe and asked that he daven that on of the Federation leaders in a New England town should die because he was rodef the frum Yidden and Yeshivas. The Rebbe answered that even if all of the complaints about this individual are correct, and even if he is 90 percent bad, he still has 10% good so how could one daven to eliminate that 10 %.
I think this is analygous to the people who are in leadership in Israel. Surely thay have more than 10% good.

[Frumkite]

Kite previously posted disrespectfully about the Lubavitcher Rebbe

To what is your brilliant mind referring?

To blasphemous things like following the rebbe's hora'ah not to sing yechi up to and including the last minutes that he was able to speak?

To following the Rebbe's dictum that moshiach cannot come from the non-living?

You and your fellow messianiacs have the monopoly on being m'chalel the name of the Rebbe.

[magdiel]

To what is your brilliant mind referring?

To blasphemous things like following the rebbe's hora'ah not to sing yechi up to and including the last minutes that he was able to speak?

To following the Rebbe's dictum that moshiach cannot come from the non-living?

You and your fellow messianiacs have the monopoly on being m'chalel the name of the Rebbe.
Bittul is a "messianic"? Moshiach Tzeiten!

[Frumkite]

Bittul is a "messianic"? Moshiach Tzeiten!
Sorry, the combination of vitriol & mindlessness weaved together in his commentaries left me assuming his membership in that camp.

[Bittul]

As before, anyone who points put what kite truly is, is called names - in this case Meshichist, vitriolic and mindless. So why should anyone be surprised by the the term yimach shmo being used inappropriately?

[Frumkite]

As before, anyone who points put what kite truly is, is called names - in this case Meshichist, vitriolic and mindless. So why should anyone be surprised by the the term yimach shmo being used inappropriately?
Joining camp with Peres?

[JewishHiphop]

..."not allowed"?! Where do you get that from? Yemach shmo/m is an expression used (also) about rishei Yisroel by gedolei Yisroel. Deal with it. ..."
Does the Shulchan Aruch count for something here?
14. It is forbidden to wish retribution to befall another Jew. This applies even to saying: "If so and so were alive, he would surely come here," for "a covenant has been established with the lips" (Mo'ed Koton 18a), causing every statement made by a Jew to have an effect. Similarly, one should not try to frighten a child with an unclean animal, telling him "A cat or dog will seize you." The same applies to other similar statement. One must be very careful making statement out of habit. (See also Chapter 207, Law 3.).
http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha/classes/class94.html

[JewishHiphop]

I remember a story where someone came to the Rebbe and asked that he daven that on of the Federation leaders in a New England town should die because he was rodef the frum Yidden and Yeshivas. The Rebbe answered that even if all of the complaints about this individual are correct, and even if he is 90 percent bad, he still has 10% good so how could one daven to eliminate that 10 %.
I think this is analygous to the people who are in leadership in Israel. Surely thay have more than 10% good.
Thanks for sharing this story. It sounds like the Rebbe's approach on this is / was similar to that of Rebbe Nachman of Breslov.
Rabbi Nachman of Breslov's teaching of AZAMRA (Likutey Moharan I:282)
Azamra l'Elokai be-odee!
"I will sing to my God as long as I live!" (Psalm 146:2).
Find the good in others...
KNOW that you must judge all people favorably. This applies even to the worst of people. You must search until you find some little bit of good in them. In that good place inside them, they are not bad! If you can just find this little bit of good and judge them favorably, you really can elevate them and swing the scales of judgment in their favor. This way you can bring them back to God
This teaching is contained in the words of King David in the Psalms: "And in just a little bit (ve-OD me-at)there's no sinner; when you think about his place, he won't be there" (Psalm 37:10). King David is teaching us to judge everyone favorably. Even if you consider someone to be totally bad, you must still search until you find some little bit of good in him. There in the place of this tiny bit of good, that person is not bad! This is the meaning of the words, "And in just a little bit there's no sinner..." ...
http://www.barmitzva.org/sing.shtml

[JewishHiphop]

Bittul is a "messianic"? Moshiach Tzeiten!
hahahaha :nervous:

[magdiel]

Thanks for sharing this story. It sounds like the Rebbe's approach on this is / was similar to that of Rebbe Nachman of Breslov.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
JH, its taka similar; How do you find these pertinent stories/sayings?

[magdiel]

hahahaha :nervous:
Let me amend my statement. Bittul (and all Lubavitchrs and Jews) are "messianics".

[The Eighth King]

JH, its taka similar; How do you find these pertinent stories/sayings?Also see the first halachah in Likkutei Halachos. ;)

[Harvard]

I definitly think this discussion got way too politicized, which I didn't intend at all, but I will let you know what I think in brief: I totally disagree with the harsh arguments that were raised regarding the settlers. As I previously said, we, Jewish people, mourn for every Jewish brother who dies, weather he is a soldier, a settler or just a "regular" man. Obviously, Soldiers get much more sympathy from the public as they risk their lives for the country, while the settlers activities are more controversial.

And regarding me "ignoring" questions - forgive me for not refreshing the forum 24/7, I'm a working man.

With kind regards,

[noahidelaws]

When you say that you disagree, do you mean that you disagree that this is the case (in which case I'd say that according to the sources I have, you're out of touch with reality) or do you mean to say that you disagreee with this attitude, and think it's improper? In which case My question remains: how do you think people got to be so stupid and blind?

[Harvard]

Noah and JewishHipHop are right - i have no intention of ignoring anyone, just answering questions that you are welcome to ask me. I have just returned from a trip to Safed, the city of Kabbalah, which is very beautiful and ancient. I recommend you all to visit there.