For King David (the poster)

[Wolf]

KD,

You seem to be having a problem understanding a simple concept, so please allow me to explain it to you.

Orthodox Judaism is not based entirely on the Tanach. Got it? I'll even repeat it just so that you understand. Orthodox Judaism is not based entirely on the Tanach.

Much of Jewish law and practice comes from the Talmud as well as from Tanach. In fact, if we practiced Judiasm solely as it is mentioned in Tanach, you would not recognize it. Many of the details of the laws that we have today come not from the Tanach directly, but from the Talmud and our oral traditions. There are numerous examples of this.

You brought up tzitzis in another thread and complained that we don't have blue in them. That's certainly true. But if you're going to simply read the Tanach, then how do you know that they should have the knot/string structure that they have? What if you wear a garment that is cornerless? Do you only have to wear them by day, or by night too? Can you take them off when you take a shower?

Do you eat Matzah for six days on Passover (Deut. 16:8) or for seven days (Exodus 12:15)? Can Kohanim marry a widow? Leviticus says yes -- Ezekiel says no (unless her deceased husband was a kohen). Whom do you follow?

On Succos, what fruit do you take with your lulav? Do you take an Esrog (Citron)? If so, how do you know to do so -- it doesn't say that anywhere in Tanach.

Do you eat fowl with milk? Why not -- there is nothing in Tanach saying that you can't.

Heck, did you bring the Passover sacrifice this year? Why not?

The point is that we don't go by the Tanach alone. It is supplemented and joined by our oral traditions, as codified in the Talmud and later writings. Got it?

The Wolf

[King David]

Ill answere quiqly shabat is comming:


Im not against Talmud: Its the best we have


But for Maschiah to come we have to aknowledge that it isnt perfect.


If we think Talmud is perfect we dont need maschiah

If we think we are on the right way we dont need mashiah

If we are attached to todays Judaisme we dont need mashiah

[Wolf]

What do you mean by "perfect?" Who said anything about perfection?

There is only one thing that is perfect, and that is God. Nothing else is perfect.

The Tanach that you talk about so reverently is not perfect either. Aside from the Pentatuch, the Tanach was written by human beings who were perfectly fallible, just like you and me.

In any event, why is Moshiach's coming dependent upon acknowledging that anything is imperfect. You made a number of statements and I'd like for you to back them up.

You stated that if we think the Talmud is perfect then we don't need Moshiach. Putting aside the actual question of whether or not the Talmud is perfect, why should it make a difference. Who says we don't need Moshiach if we believe the Talmud to be perfect?

The same applies to your other statements. Please explain more fully why you think we don't need Moshiach if we hold anything (other than God) to perfection.

The Wolf

[King David]

Yechezkiel - Chapter 36




16. And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

17. "Son of man! The house of Israel, as long as they lived on their own land, they defiled it by their way and by their misdeeds, like the uncleanness of a woman in the period of her separation was their way before Me.

18. Wherefore I poured My wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.

19. And I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. According to their way and their misdeeds did I judge them.

20. And they entered the nations where they came, and they profaned My Holy Name, inasmuch as it was said of them, 'These are the people of the Lord, and they have come out of His land.'

21. But I had pity on My Holy Name, which the house of Israel had profaned annong the nations to which they had come.

22. Therefore, say to the house of Israel; So says the Lord God: Not for your sake do I do this, O house of Israel, but for My Holy Name, which you have profaned among the nations to which they have come.

23. And I will sanctify My great Name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord-is the declaration of the Lord God-when I will be sanctified through you before their eyes.

24. For I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the countries, and I will bring you to your land.

25. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean; from all your impurities and from all your abominations will I cleanse you.

26. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

27. And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do [them].

28. Then will you dwell in the land that I gave your fathers, and you will be a people to Me, and I will be to you as a God.

29. And I will save you from all your uncleannesses, and I will call to the corn and will multiply it, and I will not decree famine again over you.
30. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you shall no more have to accept the shame of famine among the nations.

31. And you shall remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own eyes on account of your sins and on account of your abominations.

32. Not for your sake do I do it, says the Lord God, may it be known to you; be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

33. So says the Lord God: On the day that I will have cleansed you from all your iniquities, and I will resettle the cities, and the ruins shall be built up.

34. And the desolate land shall be worked, instead of its lying desolate in the sight of all that pass by.

35. And they shall say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the Garden of Eden, and the cities that were destroyed and desolate and pulled down have become settled as fortified [cities].'

36. And the nations that are left round about you shall know that I, the Lord, have built up the ruined places and have planted the desolate ones; I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will perform [it].

37. So says the Lord God: I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel to do for them; I will multiply them-the men-like a flock of sheep.

38. Like the flocks appointed for the holy offerings, like the flocks of Jerusalem on its festivals, so will these cities now laid waste be filled with flocks of men, and they shall know that I am the Lord."

[Wolf]

Please don't just cut and paste bible verses as if that gives an answer. Please answer - in your own words - the questions I asked.

The Wolf

[Wolf]

KD,

I think you would do well to just practice some honesty. If you want to discuss Karaite beliefs vs. (what you call) Rabbinite beliefs, then fine, I'm more than willing to do so. But at least identify yourself as who you are, rather than posing questions pretending to be a Rabbinite Jew.

I am a member of these boards, and I am not a member of Chabad. I make no bones about it. The members here know that I am not "one of them." They understand that I question some of their beliefs and that I don't take every word of some texts as literally as they might. But so what? At least I honestly present who I am.

If you want to discuss this further, I am more than willing to do so. But at least be up front enough and honest enough to at least acknowledge where you are coming from.

The Wolf

[King David]

Im not a Karaite.


As I said before Im born in a non religious family and Im very interested in Tanach lately.

Im not from any group, because for now I dont think anyone has it right

[chossidnistar]

Im not a Karaite.


As I said before Im born in a non religious family and Im very interested in Tanach lately.

Im not from any group, because for now I dont think anyone has it right

there are also many non Jewish groups interested in Tanach

[King David]

I think I want to become religious

[Returning]

Why is anyone wasting time with a troll?

[The Eighth King]

Aside from the Pentatuch, the Tanach was written by human beings who were perfectly fallible, just like you and me.Principle six of Maimonides principles of faith is: "I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true."

[Wolf]

Principle six of Maimonides principles of faith is: "I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true."

And I didn't dispute that. All I said was that the prophets themselves, being human beings, were fallible. I never said that their writings were not true.

Keep in mind that except for Moshe, the words and ideas that a prophet expressed were his own. God may have told him the message, but the vehicle that was used to convey the message was strictly the prophet's. As such, it must be remembered that it is colored by the prophet's experiences and environment - including any mistakes he may have learned from in his life.

The Wolf

[Meshulam]

I never said that their writings were not true...
it must be remembered that it is colored by the prophet's experiences and environment - including any mistakes he may have learned from in his life.


There's a contradiction here. At least in your own head, you may be able to squeeze out of it. But logical people can see through that.

[Wolf]

There's a contradiction here. At least in your own head, you may be able to squeeze out of it. But logical people can see through that.

Care to point out the contradiction?

Specifically -- do you think that the Nevi'im were perfect?
Do you think that their Nevuous were dictated word-for-word by God, or did they use their own words?

The Wolf

[Meshulam]

And I didn't dispute that. All I said was that the prophets themselves, being human beings, were fallible. I never said that their writings were not true.

Keep in mind that except for Moshe, the words and ideas that a prophet expressed were his own. God may have told him the message, but the vehicle that was used to convey the message was strictly the prophet's. As such, it must be remembered that it is colored by the prophet's experiences and environment - including any mistakes he may have learned from in his life.

The Wolf

I'll make it clearer. You refer to "mistakes" that the prophets may have made or learned. Then you say "I never said that their writings were not true."

Apparently it is possible to advance a position without actually identifying the position. To whit: you are emphatically suggesting that the words of the prophets are subject to doubt, c''v. Then, when cornered about it, you say "I never said..." Well, you did say... just not in so many words.

And I'm not interested in watching you weasel out of it.

[Wolf]

I'll make it clearer. You refer to "mistakes" that the prophets may have made or learned. Then you say "I never said that their writings were not true."

Apparently it is possible to advance a position without actually identifying the position. To whit: you are emphatically suggesting that the words of the prophets are subject to doubt, c''v. Then, when cornered about it, you say "I never said..." Well, you did say... just not in so many words.

And I'm not interested in watching you weasel out of it.

Oh, for heaven's sake. You seem to be stating that since I said the Nevi'im could be wrong (since they weren't perfect) that therefore there Nevu'os could be wrong.

That's not what I said at all - and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

Let's try it again:

Step 1: Nevi'im are not perfect -- can we agree on that? The only perfection belongs to HKBH. Nevi'im, as great as they were, are human beings. Can we agree on this?

Step 2: When the Nevi'im gave their messages to Klal Yisrael, they did so using their own words. The words of the Nevuah were not provided by HKBH, but by the Navi. HKBH provided the message, but the vehicle used to express the nevuah were the Navi's own words and ideas. They were formed by the Navi's experiences throughout his or her life. Can we agree on that?

Step 3: That does not mean that the nevuos that were given are false. I don't see how you came to that leap of logic. After all, I am quite fallible, but yet I can make a statement that we all agree is true, no?

There's nothing wrong with stating that the a person is fallible but that certain statements by that person are true. Please don't tell me that I've stated that any Navi's statement is false. I never said any such thing.

The Wolf

[Meshulam]

Earlier, you objected to Dave's comments by suggesting that - just like the Talmud is imperfect (whatever that means) - so too Tanach is imporfect. And Dave has been busy telling us to ignore certain things from the Talmud.

I haven't put any words in your mouth. I don't need to. You've made yourself quite clear. And I want to be perfectly clear: I don't see any benefit coming out of casting doubt on the words of the Prophets.

[Wolf]

Earlier, you objected to Dave's comments by suggesting that - just like the Talmud is imperfect (whatever that means) - so too Tanach is imporfect.

I was basing my statement on another conversation that we were having. KD wanted to know the number of letters in Tanach. I advised him that since there are variant texts in the Tanach that we have, we don't have an exact count for him. It was in that sense that I meant it was imperfect - that there is no one text available - as there are some minor variations around.

That's not the same as saying that the words of the Navi'im are false.

The Wolf

[Meshulam]

Then you should consider editing the above, which gave rise to this conversation.

[Wolf]

Then you should consider editing the above, which gave rise to this conversation.

To be honest, I simply made the mistake that everyone else was following along with the conversations that I have been having with KD on this board (there are about three or four of them).

That being said, I really don't like going back and editing, since that gives one the possibility of saying that I edited it to change what I said. I'd rather go back and explain my statements (as I did here) rather than edit them and open myself up to charges of falsification.

As a rule, the only time I edit posts is if I make an obvious typo or coding error, and then only within the first few minutes after the post. After that, it stands.

The Wolf

[Meshulam]

I won't disclose what I think about that policy. But fair enough. I don't know what this addition has to do with the prophets being perfect, but if you feel it is enough to exhonerate you, then I'll let the issue go.

[Wolf]

I won't disclose what I think about that policy.


You're entitled to your opinion. And I'm certainly not above criticism. Feel free to criticize my policy.


But fair enough. I don't know what this addition has to do with the prophets being perfect, but if you feel it is enough to exhonerate you, then I'll let the issue go.

Very simple... we were using the words "prophets" and "Tanach" two different ways. When I was talking to KD, I was referring to textual integrity, which does not exist 100%. You were referring to the actual prophecies, which is something different.

The Wolf

[WE Vaughn]

Hello David.
Torah, both written and oral are a protection to Jew as well as gentile. The Torah is Law and without Law there is the risk of religious madness that leads to all sorts of unclean speculation. You call yourself King David. Perhaps next week you will start calling yourself Moshiach? The Torah with all it's Laws both oral and written provide a path that you must walk. If you call yourself Moshiach, but don't meet the Torah requirements, the Jewish people are able to quickly identify your madness. The Torah protects the misguided gentile from reaching out and partaking of things they ought not. Outside the confines of Torah is religious anarchy where anything goes. But this anything goes mentality is not welcome in Orthodox Judaism.

[chossidnistar]

I think I want to become religious
what is to become religious?

[mbczion]

Why is anyone wasting time with a troll?

What happened to being dan le'kaskut? What have we got to lose by assuming that "King David" is asking sincere questions? For those of us who are NOT FFB, do we not remember when we were asking the same (or similar) questions?

[Returning]

What happened to being dan le'kaskut?

dan le'kaskut? I lived in Russia, and I had a friend named Dan who wore a kasket...

And I'm very sorry, but I know a demented troll on the roll when I see one. I'm not FFB myself, which is why it's far easier for me to tell the difference between a troll (second son) and a sincere, uninformed questioner (fifth son). In particular, because of my secular education which I so regret, I can pick up "prophetic" references to certain other religions' misguided beliefs without my glasses and with one eye closed.

[mbczion]

And I'm very sorry, but I know a demented troll on the roll when I see one. I'm not FFB myself, which is why it's far easier for me to tell the difference between a troll (second son) and a sincere, uninformed questioner (fifth son). In particular, because of my secular education which I so regret, I can pick up "prophetic" references to certain other religions' misguided beliefs without my glasses and with one eye closed.

Can you? I thought ONLY Hashem can TRULY see into one's heart. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to participate in a discussion with "trolls". In my eyes, if one is coming here with ?'s, then we should answer them. And if a poster turns out to be an "apikorus troll", then what have we lost? Worst case scenario, he/she remains an apikorus, but can say they actually were received with respect on a frum forum.

BTW, I'm also not FFB and do NOT regret my "secular" education for a moment, but then I guess NEITHER of us can speak for all BT, can we?

[Wolf]

because of my secular education which I so regret,

Why do you regret your secular education?

The Wolf

[Returning]

Can you? I thought ONLY Hashem can TRULY see into one's heart.

Certain quotes from Tanach, including the ones posted here, have been twisted to suit the purposes of another religion. Posting such quotes out of context, on a Jewish forum, is a typical missionary troll M.O.

Such a post cannot become part of the easily searchable records here without a challenge, because people from anywhere with any amount of knowledge can search these forums and find these posts.

If he was trolling by posting recipes for kosher cat soup, it would hardly matter. This poster has an agenda, and it has to be pointed out for the record.

And my secular education was a waste because what I do in life has zilch to do with what I learned in four wasted years that I could have used for learning Torah :).

[Bittul]

What happened to being dan le'kaskut? What have we got to lose by assuming that "King David" is asking sincere questions? For those of us who are NOT FFB, do we not remember when we were asking the same (or similar) questions?
We were Dan Lekaf Zchus, if you followed the (many) conversations with him you will see that he was drawn out until being shown to be a troll - and truthfully, worse than a troll - he seems to have come not just to promote his agenda or start an argument, he tried to play the innocent to be able to pose his insidious opinions. He didn't ask questions, he made statement.

[Wolf]

And my secular education was a waste because what I do in life has zilch to do with what I learned in four wasted years that I could have used for learning Torah :).

Ah, well, hindsight is 20/20.

In any event, you never know where life will lead you. Let me give you an example:

I hold a bachelor's degree from college in Television and Radio production -- a field that I never ended up working in professionally. Does that mean that my college years were wasted? No, not at all.

Firstly, I did learn during my college years. Most of the years, I learned during the day and went to college at night. Could I have spent those hours at night learning? Possibly. Would I have? Probably not -- after a whole day of learning, I find that I need a break.

In addition, I learned things that had nothing to do with my major that I think make me a better person today. In college, I became a certified NYS EMT. In college, I took courses in creative writing (which I use personally, not professionally). I took courses in the sciences which I hated at the time but now, many years later, have learned to appreciate. I took courses that some would consider a complete waste of time -- I took an elective on Greek & Roman Mythology, for example. But I found the course highly instructive and it opened up my eyes to the origins of words and things that we use today.

I also met people in college, and forged friendships. As a member of the EMS squad on campus, I learned a great deal about responsibility. As a member of one of the campus newspapers, I learned a fair amount about the college and it's organization.

And, if none of that matters... just the fact that I have a degree, even if it is in a field that I don't practice in professionally, opens up opportunities for employment and advancement that I would not otherwise have. I'm considering going for an MBA -- which is only possible because I have an undergrad degree.

And even if none of this applies to you today, do you know where you're going to be tomorrow? In a year from now? A decade?

Regret is a terrible thing. There are plenty of things that we do that we can regret. Positive accomplishments (and just about any education is a positive accomplishment) should not be among them.

The Wolf

[mbczion]

Returning wrote:

Certain quotes from Tanach, including the ones posted here, have been twisted to suit the purposes of another religion. Posting such quotes out of context, on a Jewish forum, is a typical missionary troll M.O.

Such a post cannot become part of the easily searchable records here without a challenge, because people from anywhere with any amount of knowledge can search these forums and find these posts.

If he was trolling by posting recipes for kosher cat soup, it would hardly matter. This poster has an agenda, and it has to be pointed out for the record.

And my secular education was a waste because what I do in life has zilch to do with what I learned in four wasted years that I could have used for learning Torah :).

I have seen the quotes. Maybe he is a Xtian missionary, maybe he is a Karaite, maybe he is a skeptic, or maybe he is TRULY being confused by Xtian missionaries and looking for a way to rebut their "proofs".

And if he is a "troll" (whether a Xtian missionary or Karaite) then what have we accomplished by throwing up the white towel and yelling "troll" or banning him? Nothing. It ONLY shows that we are afraid of continued debating with him.

And if he is NOT a "troll", but TRULY a Jew on the fence, then what have we accomplished by shutting him out. DEFINATELY nothing; on the contrary, we would have lost a Jewish soul.

If he was posting recipes for kosher cat soup, we would explain why cat soup cannot be kosher.

And, as far as "secular" education, I guess the Rambam "wasted time" learning to become a physician and practicing medicine and I guess the Rebbe, ZT"L "wasted time" in university.

[mbczion]

Bitul wrote:

We were Dan Lekaf Zchus, if you followed the (many) conversations with him you will see that he was drawn out until being shown to be a troll - and truthfully, worse than a troll - he seems to have come not just to promote his agenda or start an argument, he tried to play the innocent to be able to pose his insidious opinions. He didn't ask questions, he made statement.

Again, a) no one is forcing anybody to participate in discussions with a "troll"; just ignore the thread/s if you feel like it is a waste of time conversing with a specific poster....

b) And if he made a statement that is false, then it is our job to explain why, even if not for him, then for the many lurkers (including many who might be on the fence) that are lurking. How do you think it looks to these lurkers if we just automatically label a poster a "troll" or ban them? Like we feel uncomfotable with their "proofs" (as twisted or ridiculous as they might be)....

[mbczion]

Wolf wrote:


In any event, you never know where life will lead you. Let me give you an example:

I hold a bachelor's degree from college in Television and Radio production -- a field that I never ended up working in professionally. Does that mean that my college years were wasted? No, not at all.



Baruch Hashem. I hold a BSc in Civil Engineering, myself, and also do NOT work in that field today. However I do NOT regret learning it for one moment. First of all, the intensity of the learning in engineering helped me develop the analytical type of thinking needed for learning Gemarra. Also, Maimonides was quoted in the Guide For The Perplexed as saying the following, "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it".

And, yes, Hashem leads us all down our paths for specific reasons. If I had grown up frum I might be more learned in Torah today, but I might have also taken it for granted and not appreciated it like I do today. I also know people who have grown up Xtian and converted to Judaism, live ultra-orthodox lifestyles, yet realized that there was a reason they grew up Xtian- for example, they are the most effective with countering missionaries because of their control of the Greek Testament, etc.

Hashem leads us and we follow, so even if something seems like a "waste of time" Hashem had a reason behind it.

[Bittul]

Bitul wrote:
Again, a) no one is forcing anybody to participate in discussions with a "troll"; just ignore the thread/s if you feel like it is a waste of time conversing with a specific poster....
b) And if he made a statement that is false, then it is our job to explain why, even if not for him, then for the many lurkers (including many who might be on the fence) that are lurking. How do you think it looks to these lurkers if we just automatically label a poster a "troll" or ban them? Like we feel uncomfotable with their "proofs" (as twisted or ridiculous as they might be)....
Both were done, but there is no Mitzvah to allow such statement to continue to be made. I would assume there lurkers have a brain in their head, can follow a conversation and see how the troll was given the benefit of the doubt.

What you refer to as far as your past life is a concept of Hashgachah Protis, that if something happened a certain way then it is part of Hashem's plan for us. That does not automatically mean that if were given the option by Hashem of going back and doing it over again, you must do it the same way. I'm assuming Returning is refering to this possibility, not that it will not come to use at all.

[mbczion]

Bitul wrote:

Both were done, but there is no Mitzvah to allow such statement to continue to be made. I would assume there lurkers have a brain in their head, can follow a conversation and see how the troll was given the benefit of the doubt.


IMO there is a mitzva to bring a lost Jew (whether Karaite, "messianic", atheist) back to Judaism and no one said it is easy- sometimes it requires patience to the umpteenth degree. And it is not a question of lurkers having a brain or not, but a Jewish education or not. Many uneducated Jews are prayed upon by mistranslations of the Tanach, which the missionaries have renamed the KJV or might stumble into Karaite sites and TRULY be confused and might take a while to comprehend the error of their ways.

Bitul wrote:

What you refer to as far as your past life is a concept of Hashgachah Protis, that if something happened a certain way then it is part of Hashem's plan for us. That does not automatically mean that if were given the option by Hashem of going back and doing it over again, you must do it the same way. I'm assuming Returning is refering to this possibility, not that it will not come to use at all.

I don't know; you will have to ask him that....

I was just saying that I do NOT regret MY secular education, but have found it to be quite valuable to me....

[chossidnistar]

Returning wrote:



.

And, as far as "secular" education, I guess the Rambam "wasted time" learning to become a physician and practicing medicine and I guess the Rebbe, ZT"L "wasted time" in university.

Maybe he/she does not feel to be in the Rambam or Rebbe's level

[chossidnistar]

Returning wrote:



I have seen the quotes. Maybe he is a Xtian missionary, maybe he is a Karaite, maybe he is a skeptic, or maybe he is TRULY being confused by Xtian missionaries and looking for a way to rebut their "proofs".

And if he is a "troll" (whether a Xtian missionary or Karaite) then what have we accomplished by throwing up the white towel and yelling "troll" or banning him? Nothing. It ONLY shows that we are afraid of continued debating with him.

And if he is NOT a "troll", but TRULY a Jew on the fence, then what have we accomplished by shutting him out. DEFINATELY nothing; on the contrary, we would have lost a Jewish soul.

If he was posting recipes for kosher cat soup, we would explain why cat soup cannot be kosher.

And, as far as "secular" education, I guess the Rambam "wasted time" learning to become a physician and practicing medicine and I guess the Rebbe, ZT"L "wasted time" in university.
His posts looks as from a GOy missionary or a Jew very influenced by them (more the first), but if this thread is not for him, someone else can benefit

[Bittul]

I was just saying that I do NOT regret MY secular education, but have found it to be quite valuable to me....
I understood your personal opinion as well.

By now I trust my instict on whether someone is trustworthy or not. We've been here 5 years.

[mbczion]

I understood your personal opinion as well.

By now I trust my instict on whether someone is trustworthy or not. We've been here 5 years.

I guess you have your method and I have mine; while I have not been in Chabadtalk for 5 years, I have participated in other countermissionary forums for many years, so I am NOT so naive like some posters here might be implying.