Rabbi Wolpo's Courageous Stand

[noahidelaws]

SIX MILLION LIVES IN DANGER
Rabbi Wolpo on Video

In 1965, the Catholic Church reclassified the Jewish people in a document they call Nostra Aetate.

Nostra Aetate (Latin for "In Our Time") is the historic document that, in 'The Jewish Chapter', established the theological foundations for reconciliation between the Roman Catholic Church and the Jewish People.
Nostra Aetate renounced the centuries' old canard [a false or baseless, usually derogatory story, report, or rumor] that the Jewish people collectively were a deicide [the act of killing a god] nation, guilty of killing God.

It took the Catholic Church 1,965 years to upgrade the Jewish people from being classified as murders.

Former Prime Minister Yitzchok Rabin was murdered in 1995, almost 13 years ago. I wonder if it will take another 1,952 years before religious Jews and their Rabbis will be exonerated from the murder they did not commit.

The official version of the Rabin assassination identifies Yigal Amir as the guilty perpetrator. Amir was affiliated with a right wing political group. It is a known fact, as confirmed by the courts, that the leader of the group - a very influential person in Amir's life - was an agent of the Shin Bet [internal security service], not an orthodox rabbi.

Through media and hype, orthodox rabbis were blamed for the murder. They were accused of incitement because they publicized the dangers that Rabin was putting Jews into and they called him a traitor. The dangers that the rabbis predicted have evolved from speculation to reality. If the definition of a traitor is a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country, then Rabin is a traitor. He broke the laws of his country that deal with terrorists and he broke the trust that people placed in him to do his utmost to bring safety to his constituents.

I think the best way to describe the reaction of the rabbis to this accusation, is by calling it fear. The rabbis were afraid to take a stand and challenge the canard. They turned their backs on the people in danger and focused on more politically correct issues.

With the rabbis silenced, subsequent Prime Ministers are free to act in a traitorous way without having to worry about religious leaders, men of influence, challenging their acts. To point out a traitorous act became akin to murdering a Prime Minister.

The headline of the January 11th edition of the Forward newspaper read, "Rabbi's Incitement Against Olmert." Incitement means to provoke, to stir up some action. The article was written by Nathan Jeffery and was published and posted elsewhere in addition to the Forward.

Upon close examination of the article there is no reference to the accused rabbi of actually inciting. The accused rabbi is Rabbi Sholom Dovber Wolpo. Rabbi Wolpo is the Rav of the Chabad Synagogue of Kiryat Gat, founder and director of the organization HaMateh HaOlami Lema'an HaAm VeAaretz, founder and director of SOS-Israel.com, and prolific author and speaker in matters of Halacha and Shlaimos Ha'Aretz.

Rabbi Wolpo's words that caused the ruckus, point out the laws defining a traitor and the punishment if found guilty by a court of law. If there were any incitement in his words, it is Wolpo asking his listeners to pressure the police to bring the Prime Minister to justice according to the law.

The article by Jeffery is only a sample of how the media, in many places and languages, responded to Wolpo. In his article Jeffery writes, "Wolpo's outburst is so problematic because incitement to violence by rabbis has become the ultimate taboo, since rabbinical injunctions were blamed for inspiring Yitzchok Rabin's assassination in 1995."

This part of the article is surprisingly accurate. The rabbis were blamed. There were no facts to back the accusations. It was not proven or even substantiated that the rabbis were to blame – but they were blamed.

'Incitement to violence by rabbis' is how the public views any statement against a Prime Minister by an orthodox rabbi. Calling for the arrest and trial of someone giving weapons to the enemy at the time of war is an absolute 'incitement to violence,' according to the media, if the one calling happens to be an orthodox rabbi.

Rabbi Wolpo is not willing to wait another 1,952 years for the media to release a statement that they no longer accuse rabbis of killing Rabin. Lives are in danger!

A video clip has been released featuring Rabbi Wolpo, the one rabbi who is not afraid to speak the truth. On the video Wolpo expresses sincere concern and compassion about the security of Jews living in Eretz Yisroel. He is more afraid of destruction than being blamed. He is calm and composed and tells the facts… the truth.

Rabbi Wolpo has one agenda. He wants to prevent another Holocaust. There are now approximately six million Jews living in Eretz Yisroel. On his video Wolpo explains how, if the government carries through with its plans, all six million lives will be in grave danger.

The video can be viewed at: http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=10867 (http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=10867)

[Meshulam]

Every article I have ever read on the subject of praising Wolpo for his various exploits is the same. Its like a madlibs game. Just change some of the words (ie, historical examples). It goes like this:

A. Some analogy that will loosely be connected to the story.
B. Paragraph that tries to subtly imply that Yigal Amir did not kill Rabin.
C. That same paragraph claims that the Rabbis who used terminology like "Rodef" and the like about Rabin were not inciting violence and hatred.
D. That same paragraph (almost paradoxically) will not-so-subtly imply that Rabin was, in fact, a Rodef.
E. Claim that the incident was used to silence rabbonim (when none of us have heard the very right-wing variety of rabbonim be quiet... ever).
F. Only after the stage has been set, does the article then try to tackle the rather strange statement Wolpo made to the effect that Olmert and Co. ought to be killed.
G. The article then goes into diyuk mode, showing how Wolpo technically did not mean "by an angry mob, or by a person like Yigal Amir, who is undoubtedly listening to Wolpo, because who ELSE would he listen to." Rather, Wolpo meant that they were guilty of a crime for which Israeli law condemns someone to die. There is, obviously, no discussion in the article, or in Wolpo's various speeches, about the halochos of killing a Jew (it could be summarized thusly: Torah doesn't advocate it).
H. Some final set of paragraphs in which Wolpo is lionized as our only hope, the Luke Skywalker of the neo-Zionist cause. This paragraph usually does not mention the Rebbe, who is ideemed rrelevant for the purposes of Wolpos various crusades.
I. Finally, the kicker. Lest anyone in the audience by this point feel as though not enough fear mongering has taken place, the author will remind everyone that you either do what Wolpo says, or there will definitely be another holocaust. Its like the icing on a cake nobody wants to eat.

[Meshulam]

Watch, I'll produce another such article as an example:

When the French wanted to avoid the Nazi's march into their country, they built a well fortified wall between their border, and the border of Germany. Unforutunately for them, they left a very large hole unfortified, and it should come as no shock that the Germans found the hole, and marched through it. I wonder if we're as dumb as the French.

I can't help but be reminded of the time when we were told that it was Yigal Amir who killed Rabin. We were told this by the very government that later used that claim as propaganda to fuel their goal of silencing the Rabbis, by claiming that the Rabbis' denunciation of Rabin as a rodef led Amir to do his alleged act. I mean, sure the halachic definition of a rodef is a person who's existence endangers the lives of Jewish people. And sure, the halachah says that such a person must be killed. But what does that have to do Amir killing Rabin? Besides, history teaches us that the Rabbis were probably right.

Today, wer are now watching as one of our own is similarly railroaded. Rabbi Wolpo has been annointed from above to defend us from our various oppressors. For that, he has been mercilessly attacked by left-wing papers as a lunatic, and a dangerous maniac, whose ideas are quasi-terrorist in nature. Just today, a poster in a popular Jewish forum wrote "He is alunatic, and a dangerous maniac, whose ideas are quasi-terrorist in nature."

But Rabbi Wolpo is the only person sticking up for us. Just a few weeks ago, he was accused of calling for the death of Olmert. But, if you were listening closely, you would have realized that he technically meant through a trial, and subsequent hanging. Olmert has provided material aid to our enemies, by some method that I am not interested in having to explain.

But that's what the Israeli law says. And besides, Olmert is a Rodef. So you can either do what you're supposed to do, or there could be another Holocaust!

By Meshulam, staff writer, Arutz-7.




See, I could do this stuff. Writing paranoid right-wing hit-pieces is easy as pie.

[noahidelaws]

It's really surprising, disturbing, and sad to see someone apparently affiliated with Chabad and the Rebbe--who one would think is aware of the Rebbe's campaign to draw people's attention to the dire danger of (even discussing, never mind actually perpetrating) land surrender, a danger for all Jews in Eretz Yisroel (when discussing the matter the Rebbe would scream for hours)--to dismiss just about the only rabbi who is standing up without fear to speak out for the safety of the Jews there, and to not just dismiss, but speak in such hate-filled terms of contemptuous derision.

This attitude clearly indicates a lack of ahavas Yisroel toward this rabbi, a lack of ahavas Yisroel to the 6 million Jews endangered, and a lack of ahavas Eretz Yisroel (not a tziyonishe ahava ch"v, but a kedusha'dike one, obviously), Hashem's eternal personal gift to every single Yid. Hashem yeracheim olecho.

[Meshulam]

Davar Acher: Wolpo's bombastic pronouncements are embarassing to Chabad and to frumkeit. One can follow the Rebbe's horaos without being a clown. I love Wolpo as a Jew. But that doesn't mean I need to speak of him in reverent tones, or call him "Rabbi." I didn't speak in any hate-filled terms. Rather it is Wolpo who uses hate-filled, fear mongering rhetoric. Finally, I don't see what disagreeing with this one man's extreme and silly approach to this issue has to do with ahavas Eretz Yisroel.

But, since you mentioned tziyonim, didn't Wolpo threaten to start his own state if the Israeli gov't gave up land?

[noahidelaws]

Sorry, you need to be more specific. Exactly which statements do you find "bombastic", which is apparently a derogatory way of saying exaggerated, and why? How would you have said the same thing?

[noahidelaws]

I wait, and wait, for a reasoned response, for any response, but Meshulam has nothing to say. I see that intelligent discussion on the topic does not interest him. All he knows is sinas chinom-filled derision and scoffing.

See Torah Ohr, Beshalach, 61c-d where it speaks about the inyan of plishtim di'klipa, leitzonus. See Sanhedrin 63b, where it says that all leitzonus is ossur, except of avoda zoro. In this case, it's maximum someone misguided about how to go about saving lives; at least he's doing something, unlike everyone else vos kovshu pneihem bekarka R"l, certainly not avoido zoro. And see Tanya ch. 8, (http://otzar770.com/library/display_page.asp?nPageNumber=25&ilSC=40&nBookId=108&cPartLetter=B) where it says that leitzonus is from sholosh klipas ha'temeiyos. Also, see your local mashpia.

[Meshulam]

You didn't ask any question that required an answer. We've been referring to his statement that Olmert and his cabinet should hang from the gallows (which he later amended, and said that they should be tried and executed). All of the things I mentioned above in my first couple of responses to this article you posted, I consider bombastic: comparisons between Olmert and the Nazis, etc. All of that is self-understood, I thought.

I'm not interested in your mussar. I didn't put on a clown suit and lampoon this man (he does a fine job of that himself without my help). I pointed out problems with him and with his special admirers. If you didn't like my tone, then perhaps you would be interested to know that I almost never like your tone on this issue.

[noahidelaws]

Your "tone" is putting it mildly. And aside from my points above, there is an issur of speaking in a derogatory way about a talmid Chochom.

Just stick to the issue. I asked you a simple question: to describe without lengthy leitzonus, what it was that bothered you. You ignored the question.

My "mussar"? Don't write in such a way in public, and people won't object.

If you don't like my tone, then simply point out where the sources imply that there's something inherently incorrect about my tone, and I'll be happy to discuss it.

[Meshulam]

Your "tone" is putting it mildly. And aside from my points above, there is an issur of speaking in a derogatory way about a talmid Chochom.
I did not speak derogatorily about this man. I spoke derogatorily about his Chassidim. About him, I merely called him an embarassment to Chabad and to fedoras everywhere.

We can debate about whether he is a talmid chochom. A talmid chochom wouldn't incite violence against Jews.


Just stick to the issue. I asked you a simple question: to describe without lengthy leitzonus, what it was that bothered you. You ignored the question.

I made this matter clear in all of my above posts. But I stated them specifically in my last post. I'm not going to repeat myself 100 times so that you can find the girsa of my post that you like best.

My "mussar"? Don't write in such a way in public, and people won't object.

You're people now? So far, there has been only one objection. And you object similarly if I merely disagree with you. So I'm not inclined to change how I write based on the multitudes of "people" who were offended.

[noahidelaws]

1. All he said was that the Israeli penal code that contains a death sentence for those who collaborate with Nazi-type murderers should be applied even to Prime Ministers. Do you think Prime Ministers should be beyond the law of the land (assuming there's no conflict with Torah law, of course)? What is exaggerated here? Do you think that it's not so terrible to collaborate with Nazi-type murderers? A forgiveable character flaw?

2. Filthy lowlife traitors like these should not be called "leaders". As for your deep concern for the honour of Chabad, this is a matter of pursuing justice. The Rebbe called countless times for doing that. He called it tzedek ve'yosher. That's what brings honour to Chabad or anyone else. Flattery--i.e., not speaking out when necessary because you want people to like you--leads to contempt and disgrace.

3. No, I don't know that the Rebbe said such a statement re execution in particular, but that's irrelevant, because the Rebbe addressed many issues of tzedek ve'yosher, not all of them. What matters is whether it's tzedek ve'yosher. It's certainly not tzedek ve'yosher to exempt politicians from the law of the land. Never mind let them get away with murder, quite literally.

4. Frankly, I don't care if he's a spokesman or not a spokesman, and what he said about identifying Moshiach is irrelevant. When it comes to shleimus ho'oretz, he's saying the emes that needs to be said, when almost everyone else is burying their heads in the sand while Jews are slaughtered and abused en masse.

5. He didn't "amend" his statement, his original statement referred to a type of death that is a form of execution. He explained it further on a later occasion for those who attempted to distort it.

6. I really fail to see what is so objectionable about saying that such a criminal be brought to justice. In fact, I think it's scandalous, unethical, and criminal to suggest that he shouldn't be.

7. Nothing personal, but I think your whole concept of "kovod Lubavitch"--that the derech of Chabad is to always say fluffy lovey-dovey fuzzy mushy heartwarming platitudes so everyone will love us and say "you're the best!" is sheer baseless nonsense. That's flattery, which is another issur d'oiraisa! Also, kas chanfonim einom mekablim pnei Shechina! When lives were in danger in Russia, chassidim knew that they had to do whatever it took to save them, and they didn't make cheshboinois. Jewish lives are just as valuable today, and it's encouraging that someone still feels this way.

8. Again, I'm willing to have a dialogue, but please cut the leitzonus and stick to the issues.

[Meshulam]

1. All he said was that the Israeli penal code that contains a death sentence for those who collaborate with Nazi-type murderers should be applied even to Prime Ministers. Do you think Prime Ministers should be beyond the law of the land (assuming there's no conflict with Torah law, of course)? What is exaggerated here? Do you think that it's not so terrible to collaborate with Nazi-type murderers? A forgiveable character flaw?
The original statement made no clear reference to a trial, and to any laws. He merely said Olmert and his cabinet should be hanged. That can be done by a Court, or by an angry mob. He made no indication that it should be a Court, and did not mention any statute authorizing such a course of action. Only after people got upset did he amend his statement, and add that he meant after trial, etc.

2. Filthy lowlife traitors like these should not be called "leaders". As for your deep concern for the honour of Chabad, this is a matter of pursuing justice. The Rebbe called countless times for doing that. He called it tzedek ve'yosher. That's what brings honour to Chabad or anyone else. Flattery--i.e., not speaking out when necessary because you want people to like you--leads to contempt and disgrace.
You call them traitors because you do not like their policy decisions. This is the kind of bombastic statement that I find objectionable about you and radicals who are like you: anyone who disagrees with you is a "filthy lowlife." Nobody has been able to demonstrate to me that Olmert has suggested giving away land for some personal benefit. In fact, it is a politically risky thing to do. I imagine that Olmert continues to advocate peace talks, and land concessions because in the years since Gaza, terrorism has gone down in Israel rather than up. There may be many explanations for that fact that have nothing to do with Gaza, but the fact is that Israel under Olmert has largely been safer than Israel under Barak and Likud-Sharon before him, etc.

That goes right to the issue of the honor of Chabad: I, like you, think that if you are doing something noble, that it doesn't matter what the world thinks of you. The act of doing the right thing brings honor. You are not alone in this belief, and I wish you would stop pretending that you are. I think that your insistence on saying things like: those who disagree with you are "filthy lowlife traitors" who should be "hung" brings dishonor to Chabad because it is incorrect and radical, and silly to say such things.

3. No, I don't know that the Rebbe said such a statement re execution in particular, but that's irrelevant, because the Rebbe addressed many issues of tzedek ve'yosher, not all of them. What matters is whether it's tzedek ve'yosher. It's certainly not tzedek ve'yosher to exempt politicians from the law of the land. Never mind let them get away with murder, quite literally.

This is a statute that, to my knowledge, has never been invoked on any citizen of that country. To start actively enforceing it on someone because he advances a policy that is different from yours isn't "the law of the land." Disagreeing with the Rebbe is not punishable by death. Disagreeing with you or Wolpe similarly is not punishable by death. Finally, I have yet to see anyone go into whether Jews are allowed to invoke a secular death penalty against a Jew under any circumstances. Wolpe doesn't seem to know or care about the answer to that question, but I do: Olmert and his cabinet are Jews. Calling for their deaths may be a violation of halacha.

4. Frankly, I don't care if he's a spokesman or not a spokesman, and what he said about identifying Moshiach is irrelevant. When it comes to shleimus ho'oretz, he's saying the emes that needs to be said, when almost everyone else is burying their heads in the sand while Jews are slaughtered and abused en masse.

You say this, but his position on Moshiach is evidence of his willingness to defy the Rebbe. The Rebbe publicly called him down on the issue of Moshiach (to no avail). I don't mean to say this or that about the issue of Moshiach, which is irrelevant. But it is fitting to point out that when he and the Rebbe disagreed about the issue of Moshiach, Wolpo did his own thing, regardless of what the Rebbe said about it.

5. He didn't "amend" his statement, his original statement referred to a type of death that is a form of execution. He explained it further on a later occasion for those who attempted to distort it.

Nobody had to distort the original statement. It did not clearly refer to execution at all. It merely invoked hanging. I don't know when the last time anyone was hanged in a western country, but when you talk about hanging in the modern day, the first thing that comes to mind is a mob, not a court.

6. I really fail to see what is so objectionable about saying that such a criminal be brought to justice. In fact, I think it's scandalous, unethical, and criminal to suggest that he shouldn't be.

Here come more descriptive terms. There is plenty that you "fail to see." I have pointed out some of it above and I don't need to repeat myself.

7. Nothing personal, but I think your whole concept of "kovod Lubavitch"--that the derech of Chabad is to always say fluffy lovey-dovey fuzzy mushy heartwarming platitudes so everyone will love us and say "you're the best!" is sheer baseless nonsense. That's flattery, which is another issur d'oiraisa! Also, kas chanfonim einom mekablim pnei Shechina! When lives were in danger in Russia, chassidim knew that they had to do whatever it took to save them, and they didn't make cheshboinois. Jewish lives are just as valuable today, and it's encouraging that someone still feels this way.

More assuming. When did I say anything about saying anything fluffy lovey-dovey etc. Let me be clear about this so that there is no confusion: if Wolpo was saying things that made sense, but were unpopular, I would be for him. Since he is saying stupid things, I am against him.

8. Again, I'm willing to have a dialogue, but please cut the leitzonus and stick to the issues.
No letzonus. This isn't a joking matter. The man is a buffoon, is doing great harm to Chabad, and should be denounced.

[noahidelaws]

The original statement made no clear reference to a trial, and to any laws. He merely said Olmert and his cabinet should be hanged. That can be done by a Court, or by an angry mob. He made no indication that it should be a Court, and did not mention any statute authorizing such a course of action. Only after people got upset did he amend his statement, and add that he meant after trial, etc.
Which news report are you going by? Here (http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/106217.html) it says "the prime minister, Vice Premier Haim Ramon, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Defense Minister Ehud Barak" would be "hanged from the gallows" were Israel run properly." I.e., state execution. Vos hakst a cheinik.

You call them traitors because you do not like their policy decisions. This is the kind of bombastic statement that I find objectionable about you and radicals who are like you: anyone who disagrees with you is a "filthy lowlife." Nobody has been able to demonstrate to me that Olmert has suggested giving away land for some personal benefit. In fact, it is a politically risky thing to do. I imagine that Olmert continues to advocate peace talks, and land concessions because in the years since Gaza, terrorism has gone down in Israel rather than up. There may be many explanations for that fact that have nothing to do with Gaza, but the fact is that Israel under Olmert has largely been safer than Israel under Barak and Likud-Sharon before him, etc.

So it's a "policy decision" to expel 10,000 Jews, to give guns, Jewish money, legitimacy to Fatach terrorists, to arrange that vast swaths of strategic land and resources be surrendered to Hamas, order that the heads of Jewish boys and girls be smashed in, etc., etc.? You're legitimising of this evil makes me nauseous; not only are you a disgrace to Chassidim and Yidn, you're a disgrace to the human race.

I think that your insistence on saying things like: those who disagree with you are "filthy lowlife traitors" who should be "hung" brings dishonor to Chabad because it is incorrect and radical, and silly to say such things. Duh, it's YOU who is speaking silliness. The issue is not that he disagrees with me, and I do not call people by such epithets for that alone, obviously; if that were all, I'd be fine with it; the issue is that he has been the cause bederech hateva of giving land, guns, money, and legitimacy to Fatah, the modern-day Nazis, thus collaborating in the deaths of many Jews and endangering all the Jews in Eretz Yisroel H"y.

This is a statute that, to my knowledge, has never been invoked on any citizen of that country. To start actively enforceing it on someone because he advances a policy that is different from yours isn't "the law of the land." Disagreeing with the Rebbe is not punishable by death. Disagreeing with you or Wolpe similarly is not punishable by death. Finally, I have yet to see anyone go into whether Jews are allowed to invoke a secular death penalty against a Jew under any circumstances. Wolpe doesn't seem to know or care about the answer to that question, but I do: Olmert and his cabinet are Jews. Calling for their deaths may be a violation of halacha.So what that it hasn't been invoked. So they don't follow their own laws. It's not a matter of a different policy, as above, but of someone who is guilty of loss of Jewish life and property and plotting to continue acting in a way that leads to death of Jews and loss of Jewish property. It's not about "disagreeing with the Rebbe"; the value of Jewish life and property is not the Rebbe's chiddush. R' Wolpo is simply echoing principles in Halacha.

As for your last point, they may be Jews, but they are mosrim and rodfim par excellence; the Halacha is very clear on what should happen to them, and in fact the Beis Hamikdosh was destroyed because a Jew had misplaced mercy on a moser.

You say this, but his position on Moshiach is evidence of his willingness to defy the Rebbe. The Rebbe publicly called him down on the issue of Moshiach (to no avail). I don't mean to say this or that about the issue of Moshiach, which is irrelevant. But it is fitting to point out that when he and the Rebbe disagreed about the issue of Moshiach, Wolpo did his own thing, regardless of what the Rebbe said about it. It's true that at first the Rebbe told him not to print his book, but later the Rebbe gave him explicit permission. So the Rebbe didn't object in principle, but believed that then wasn't the time.

A crucial point that you're deftly avoiding here is to explain why you feel that negotiating with Fatah is different from negotiating with Nazis, when Fatah (it feels like I'm in the twilight zone that I have to state this self-evident fact) is an active terrorist group that regularly murders Jews, Hy"d, and plans to etc. hl"s with all the 6 million Jews living in Eretz Yisroel, kein yirbu, as is written in the PLO charter and was never retracted. Moreover, you are so passionate about this distinction you draw that you brand those who don't see this distinction as "bombastic." Care to explain?

In summary, Chazal say that those who are compassionate when they should be cruel will be cruel when they should be compassionate. This is very evident in your posts, where you bend over backwards to defend the motivations of Olmert--the leader of the Malchus ha'minus ho'resho'o, the lying ruthless shameless Jew-expeller Jew-basher skull-cracker shr"y--as legit., but Rabbi Wolpo, a great Talmid Chochom, whom the Rebbe encouraged to write books on matters of Shleimus Ha'aretz and who courageously publicises the Rebbe's message like no one else--unlike almost all his silent cowardly peers--you follow the typical secular media slant to twist and attribute deceptive intentions of "lo kach omarti elo kach omarti" when he's a straight and honest person, and you generally dismiss him in the most derogatory terms. Feh.

[Torah613]

1) The Rebbe's permission was for the book "Yechi Hamelech" - which was was with certain conditions and limitations, namely heavy editing out of all references to the Rebbe etc., conditions which upset him greatly, since Wolpoe saw it as reverting to the "dark ages" of 5745 (as he lamented at the time) ... OTOH, as soon as the Rebbe had his stroke, he printed all those excerpts anyway, in the book "Yachi Hamelech Hamosiach". All this is well known, and was well known at the time.
2) Something I said many times: Much of the language on this issue, is language I have grown up knowing as NK language. The Rebbe, OTOH, in all the sichas on מיהו יהודי, and on שטחים etc., never used such language. This tells me that this is not the language we should be using, even while protesting the issue.
Of course, one will claim: 1) Today is different (as is claimed on every issue that does not work with the way things were done over 16 years ago), 2) We are not on the level of the Rebbe.
But still, one has no right to complain when someone who (nebach) tries to keep his language and mode of argument in line with what he is used to hearing from the Rebbe - does complain.

[Meshulam]

I have made all of my substantive arguments above. Repeating myself with renewed vigor will not help at all. I think Torah613 said everything I might have said much more diplomatically and more succinctly than I would have. Suffice it to say, I do not withdraw any of my previous comments on this thread.

[MrFinkelstein]

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/107249.html

Abbas says 'resistance' still an option
Published: 02/28/2008
Mahmoud Abbas was quoted as saying he might support Palestinian armed "struggle" against Israel in the future.
"At this time I am against armed struggle because we cannot achieve it," the Palestinian Authority president said in an interview with the Jordanian newspaper Ad-Dustour published Thursday, but added that "things might be different in the coming stages."
Israel and Western powers have long praised Abbas for renouncing terrorist and guerrilla attacks as part of the Palestinian national cause. His comments in the newspaper appeared to run counter to that image.
In the interview, Abbas said that he had the "honor" of being the first member of Yasser Arafat's Fatah to fire a gun at Israelis, in 1965.
He further said that his faction "taught many in the region and world about resistance -- how and when it is useful, when it is not useful." Palestinians generally use the terms "struggle" and "resistance" for any type of attack against Israelis, whether they are soldiers or civilians.
Israeli officials had no immediate comment.
Some commentators have speculated that Abbas, who relaunched peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert last November, is under pressure to prove his "fighting credentials" in the face of fierce domestic challenges by the rival Hamas Islamists who control Gaza.

[MrFinkelstein]

A talmid chochom wouldn't incite violence against Jews.

Shemos Ch. 32

כה וַיַּרְא מֹשֶׁה אֶת-הָעָם, כִּי פָרֻעַ הוּא: כִּי-פְרָעֹה אַהֲרֹן, לְשִׁמְצָה בְּקָמֵיהֶם. 25 And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose--for Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies--

כו וַיַּעֲמֹד מֹשֶׁה, בְּשַׁעַר הַמַּחֲנֶה, וַיֹּאמֶר, מִי לַיהוָה אֵלָי; וַיֵּאָסְפוּ אֵלָיו, כָּל-בְּנֵי לֵוִי. 26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said: 'Whoso is on the LORD'S side, let him come unto me.' And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

כז וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם, כֹּה-אָמַר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, שִׂימוּ אִישׁ-חַרְבּוֹ, עַל-יְרֵכוֹ; עִבְרוּ וָשׁוּבוּ מִשַּׁעַר לָשַׁעַר, בַּמַּחֲנֶה, וְהִרְגוּ אִישׁ-אֶת-אָחִיו וְאִישׁ אֶת-רֵעֵהוּ, וְאִישׁ אֶת-קְרֹבוֹ. 27 And he said unto them: 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.'

[Meshulam]

To say the least, the comparison is inaccurate.

[Hiskashrus]

Koh Amar Hashem... That is the key term here.

[MrFinkelstein]

You're right.

In Rabbi Moses M. Yoshor's biography of the Chafetz Chaim as translated into English by Artscroll Publications, Volume 2 chapter 67, page 679 we learn the following:
''According to Rav Elchanan Wasserman, the Chafetz Chaim used to say further, ''Jews made a mistake when the edicts of the [I]yevsektsia began. They should have gone right then in battle against them, with dedication and self-sacrifice, ready to give their lives. Many would indeed have been killed, but Satan's power would have been weakened. No one could be found, however, ready to sacrifice himself in battle; and so the yevsektsia grew stronger.''
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It was told in the biography of Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman (in the English Artscroll edition, page 59) what the Chafetz Chaim (who usually has the final say on what is Jewish Law) did to the Communist, Trotsky.

That the Chafetz Chaim agreed to curse this wicked man with a curse , special for wicked Jews and within a short time thereafter, Trotsky fell from power (one should add that after a few years later , Stalin also murdered him). And see also the Be'ur Halacha, siman 329 the words beginning with Eleh L-fi ''that it is permissible to curse a wicked Jew''....for it is written '' and a leader of your nation do not curse'' -when he does the action of your nation.

And also of the messiah, it is written, ''And he shall smite a land with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked'' (Yishayahu\Isaiah 11:4).

And even though, it is possible to curse without hating, based on the Be'ur Halacha to Siman 1 beginning with the words V'lo Yitbayesh we can conclude that definitely the Chafetz Chaim, for purely spiritual reasons, did hate Trotsky.

To spare the reader from having to seek out the source, I'll quote the passage :

"But if he is standing in a place that has Apikorsim (heretics) that rise up against the Torah and wish to enact some regulations in the matters of the city, and by means of this they will bring the people to transgress the will of G-d; and he opened in peace, and his words were not obeyed. In such a situation the Beit Yosef did not speak of at all. And it is a mitzvah to hate them and quarrel with them and nullify their plotting with all that he has the ability to do. And King David, peace be unto him said, '' Do I not hate, Hashem, those that hate you and with those that rise up against you , I shall quarrel ! I hate them with an utmost hatred: I count them as my enemies''. (Psalms 139:21,22)

We clearly see from the above, that it is wrong to display groundless love to extremely wicked Jews, (in modern times, such as, Trotsky) .




I recommend this page: http://www.600000men.com/book/hatred.html

[noahidelaws]

1. The issue of what he said about identifying Moshiach is really irrelevant.

2. Meshulam hasn't answered any of the detailed points I made, as usual. (Nor did Torah613 disagree with the basic point that Fatah and Hamas are comparable to Nazis, or address various other points I raised.) It's a typical method of people who have no answer to claim they already answered. Whatever. Meshulem stands by his position that the notorious olmert and co are respectable people who are maximum naively in error in their noble "policy decision" for expelling many thousands of Jews, ordering that the skulls of Jewish kids be cracked open, and in surrendering large amounts of land, money, and guns to terrorists, directly facilitating mass loss of Jewish life and property R"l. And that Rabbi Wolpo is not just "in error", he is deceitful, etc. And he refuses to explain why the comparison between Hamas and Fatah and the Nazis is "bombastic", i.e., exaggerated.

3. Mr F., you're wasting your time: anyone who thinks that Abbas was ever a reformed peace-lover is such an irrational blithering idiot that no amount of news reports will change his mind, because truth is not on his radar screen.

4. Thanks for the quote from the Chofetz Chaim: it's too bad that the chances of enough people taking it seriously today are negligible.

5. Re Neturei Karta (I don't mean the wacko ones who meet with Arafat and co. and lick his feet, but the normal ones who just oppose the state etc.), didn't the Rebbe say (correct me if I'm mistaken) that if they wouldn't do it, then we would have to do it? And the Rebbe Rashab and the Frierdike Rebbe used similar rhetoric many times. The Rebbe wasn't against their rhetoric in principle.

[Hiskashrus]

skulls of Jewish kids be cracked open
Do we really need this?

The Rebbe himself never used such rhetoric. He spoke very emotionally and very strongly, but not with such sharp rhetoric.

[Torah613]

Hiskashrus - it says befeirush in the post before your that the Rebbe was not "against using their rhetoric in principle"...

[Hiskashrus]

I can see where he would get the idea that the Rebbe was not opposed to the pashkvillen posted on the streets of Jerusalem, but even in those pashkvillen, such graphic details are not posted. I don't think that such is described anywhere in Jewish texts - except for some detailed stories in the Gemara, and several in the seder avodah of YK.

But irrelevant. This entire thread is silly (What a Chidush).

[noahidelaws]

Did you see the pictures and footage of what happened in Amonah on Olmert's direct orders? This is not "rhetoric", this is fact, fact that doesn't seem to bother certain people here all that much. In fact, they'd rather not know just how much Jews are being oppressed by the malchus ho'resho'o, so much that they get upset at hearing it. I find this philosophising about whether to remind people of these facts repulsive, especially considering that oid yodom netuyo ube'oifen to "Mitzvoh goreres Mitzvoh".

People should be declaring fasts at the matzav as per the Rambam Hilchos Taaniyos, not looking the other way from the tzoros and pretending that it will go away. Somehow I imagine that if it had happened to their own family ch''v, they'd be less forgiving and less inclined to advocate mildness and changing the subject.

I'm sure people who were drawing attention to the corruption of the Judenrat and of the imminent danger from the Nazis felt the same type of resistance. Shouldn't we learn the lesson from history?

[Hiskashrus]

Even in rhetoric concerning Nazis, I don't think that there were depictions as to how "Jewish skulls were being cracked" - that is unnecessary and words that are appealing only to קלי דעת

[Torah613]

Noah - concerning the vast majority here (and perhaps everyone), you are pretty much clueless about how we feel about the events taking place in EY. The fact that some object to some of your rhetoric, has nothing to do with their opinion on the actual happenings there - though I understand that it makes you feel good lumping it all together.
Yes, perhaps Rabonim should be gozer taanis. But it will only be taken seriously if proclaimed by people that can be taken seriously with words that can be taken seriously...

[Aaronke]

Dear Rabbonim Sheyichyu, I watched Volpo's video again and again and I will conclude three things:
1) Everything he said is true.
2) Nothing he said was to incite at all! (The Leftist have said MUCH worse things about the settlers)
3) A shame that this came from a so-called Lubavitcher when it just as well could have come from a (not even frum) politician. The Rebbe would not allow it.

[noahidelaws]

Hiskashrus: Guess you didn't read the testimonies of the events in Amonah, or see the images and footage, or you didn't read and see enough of them. I think it's perfectly necessary for people to be reminded of who and what sort of evil we're dealing with, even if the thought is highly unpleasant, which I fully agree that it is.

May I ask you, would you have called it "kalus" to describe to Jews in America what's going on in Europe during the Holocaust? And what would you have said if someone had said that you shouldn't describe these events, because such speech is crude, graphic, and "not our derech"?

Torah613: Meshulam has made his leftwing opinion clear about the events in Eretz Yisroel, and it's his words I'm mainly addressing. But the general impression that I've received, both on this forum and in real life, concerning the matzav in Eretz Yisroel, is R"l general lack of interest and even outright apathy. People are not interested in hearing the painful facts of the suffering that the gov't is knowingly inflicting, the extent of the current danger, and the extent of the danger that the gov't is plotting to plunge the people into. These are taboo topics. Then they get all piously upset about why ploni ben ploni shouldn't say kach v'kach when the reality is that the matzav is something that was barely on their minds, and certainly not on their mouths and keyboards.

As for this forum, the very fact that people are completely silent about the matzav in Eretz Yisroel, and are happy to discuss all sorts of trivialities and waste their time with leitzonus, hoilelus, and dvorim beteilim, shows very clearly just how strongly they feel about the matzav.

But please, let people tell me about how they regularly read the reports on the matzav, farbreng with people about what we can do, etc., pour out their hearts for the Yidden there in shma koleinu, at the Ohel, etc., and I will apologise to those individuals for being choshed bi'ksheirim. I certainly haven't seen many people express such sentiments here.

[Torah613]

Like I have said many times, this is not the place to give a din vechosbon to anyone about anything. Measuring what people do or don't do about anything based on what they write here, is indeed really silly.
This is a place to discuss, ask questions, explore issues. Most do not come here to tirade. There are other venues for that. It is also rather pointless.
But you disagree. Fine.

[Hiskashrus]

I think it is sufficient to mention that "Jewish lives are at state, and Jewish will being is being risked" or something to that effect. That says far more than simple graphic depictions of "Skulls being cracked" - Why do we not see any mention of such rhetoric in davening and in divrei Chazal and Razal? (Except very scarcely)? And believe me that there were far worse atrocities taking place in those times.

[noahidelaws]

Torah613: I didn't ask you for a din v'cheshbon. And like I said, if I'm being choshed biksheirim, and you or others do all or even some of the things I described in my last post, then I apologise. But I'm ... skeptical that I'm mistaken in my assessment.

Hiskashrus: Really, you find that when you say that (hate to point out something so trivial, but you need to work on your spelling, by the way) to people, they "get it" and then learn, davven, and fabreng non-stop about what can be done to fix or at least help the matzav? I highly doubt that. It's just too general enough to mean anything to anyone.

It's the people who make it their business to be aware of exactly what is going on, because the matzav of their Jewish brethren truly matters to them, who are (more likely to be) doing the above. Visit Sderot and Ashkelon, and speak to the wounded and bereaved people, the children who suffer nightmares, the tremendous loss of parnoso; visit Nitzan and see the ruins of the lives of the Azah expellees, visit bereaved families of terror victims, visit Jews in Yehuda v'Shomron who live constantly in doubt about whether they'll be living in their house in 6 months time, speak to the youth who were so brutally treated in Amonah, the bereaved families of the soldiers whose boys were sent to their death in Lebanon, the families expelled from the Avraham Avinu neighbourhood and Shapira building in Chevron, the victims of the shootings by arabs with guns provided to them by the gov't, etc., etc. Ein lecho yom she'ein merubo ... (Or if you can't visit (like me; I would if I could), at least make it your business to read about it, and communicate somehow with someone there.)

And then it will be more real, and then az es tut vei, shreit men. And you won't think it's so crazy anymore to compare Fatah and Hamas to the Nazis, and the gov't to the Judenrat.

[Torah613]

fabreng non-stop about what can be done to fix or at least help the matzavTrivial quibble: I fail to see the connection to a farbrengen, unless the definition of the word has greatly changed since my long-ago-youth...

[Hiskashrus]

להתוועד בבחי' "עד דלא ידעי" (ולהעיר שהזמן גרמא) וקם רבה שחטיה לרבי זירא בבחי' בקיעת הגלגולת כמבואר

[Torah613]

ולהעיר מענין הבקיעה ע"י השערות שהו"ע המשכה בדרך דילוג וענין הצמצום. ולפ"ז צע"ג למה באמת שחטיה לר"ז, ולא בקע הגלגולת שלו? ואולי באמת הי' כן, רק משום כבוד ה' הסתר דבר, וע"ד טענת התקשרות באשכול זה, ובאמת מוכח מיניה וביה, שהרי כן הוא המנהג מקדמת דנא בהתועדות חסידית, לזרוק בקבוק ריק על הגלגולת, וא"כ דוחק הכי גדול שעשה ענין של שחיטה כפשוטו. ולהעיר מזריקת הבקבוק על רשב"ץ (?) כמסופר בלקו"ד, שכנראה הוא באותו בחינה, אבל אולי פוילישע חסיד שאני

[Hiskashrus]

ועוד להעיר מחוסר השערות אשר אז אין גילוי המשכה כלל וכלל, ולכן נמצא במצב כיווץ וצר שהו"ע ממעמקים כו' (וי"ל שההתוועדות צ"ל דוקא בבחי' ממעמקים היינו במרתף) ועי"ז נמשך הגילוי ביתר שאת. והנה לאחרי ההעלם נמשך הגילוי בבחי' אה"ר בחי' אוהד (אהוד) שהו"ע הקפיצה וגם ענין השחיטה - היינו עד דלא ידעי, עד דייקא, ולא בבחי' לא ידעי מעיקרא. ועפ"ז ניתן ליישב קושיית הגאון ביחס לשחיטה אשר מדובר בשתי תקופות, הראשונה בבחי' ממעקים בחי' צר (ל' מצרים) וקיבוץ שע"י מתגלה ענין השחיטה רק בדוחק (היינו הבקיעה) והתקופה האחרונה אשר בה מתגלה הדברים כפשוטן היינו שחיטה של ממש; ויש לומר שכפה עליהם הר כגיגית וידוע שבהר איתא אבנים חדות... אמנם עדיין דוחק.


וכ"ז ע"ד משנכנס כו אדר מרבים בשמחה וידוע דחד הפירושים דאדר הוא עץ חזק ובר קיימא, וע"ד עץ דהמן שמתחבר עם בחי' אהדה בחי' אהוד שהו"ע עבודת הבירורים

ותקוותי שכיוונתי לדברי גדולים

[Aaronke]

Torah613 and Hiskashrus, you sound like little children... Go back to school! You're just proving Noahides right! If it was your skull or your brother's that got cracked open in Amona you would NOT be jesting! Shame on you both! Kol tuv and have agreat week!

[noahidelaws]

I've gotta admit it, you guys really got me laughing!!

[Torah613]

ולהעיר משייכות אהרן "כהנא רבה" לענין קם רבה ושחטיה לר"ז, שמזה נשתלשל אצל אהרן'ק רק ענין השחיטה בלי התוכן פנימי שבזה, וע"ד שמריבוי שערות נשאר - רק חושך והעלם וצמצום וכיווץ המוחין, וכידוע הפתגם - אבי ניט קיין נער.

[noahidelaws]

Here is the latest from the people whom a certain member thinks it is a legitimate "policy decision" to give them a separate state a stone's throw away from Jewish population centres, and is piously foaming at the mouth and heaping ridicule on those who "bombastically" compare them to the Nazis, and call Judenrat the people who collaborate with them and plot to surrender to them the soveriegnty that they press for on a silver platter:

Arab Terrorists Attack Jerusalem's Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva: 8 Dead

by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz

Two Arab terrorists infiltrated Jerusalem's Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva at around 8:30 Thursday night and murdered eight Jews. At least six people have been wounded; three are in critical condition and a fourth victim was wounded moderately.

The attackers entered from two separate entrances to the yeshiva and opened fire on the students before one of them was gunned down himself. Witnesses say that the attack began in the seminary's library.

The second terrorist hid in the yeshiva building, with subsequent reports indicating that the attacker was killed by responding security forces. Police are deployed in the surrounding neighborhood and scoured the yeshiva and connected buildings. Most students in the building were evacuated after taking cover in the yeshiva's bomb shelter, according to police spokesmen.

50 ambulances responded to the scene, which emergency responders have called "a major incident." The injured were evacuated to Hadassah Ein Karem Hospital.
Police forces are on heightened alert throughout the country.

The Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva is located near the entrance to Jerusalem, in the Kiryat Moshe neighborhood.

Hashem yikom domom.

[Hiskashrus]

It was pretty scary. Lots of ambulance noise, and the streets are closed. I am not that far away...

[noahidelaws]

So ... what's your opinion of those behind the bold peace initiative of making these cuddly fellows your next-door neighbours? It's a misguided policy decision?

[Meshulam]

So ... what's your opinion of those behind the bold peace initiative of making these cuddly fellows your next-door neighbours? It's a misguigded policy decision?

My opinion is that it is disgusting of you to use a terrible event like this as an emotional pawn in this little game of chess you believe you're having with me. As for what impact it has on my opinion... I, for one, do not like to use tragic events as political tools. And I certainly am not inclined to cheapen the situation by commenting literally on the same day as the actual attack.

[noahidelaws]

1. The question was not directed to you. If you want, you can respond to the earlier posts of mine that were directed to you, which you conveniently ignored.

2. My opinion is that it is disgusting of you to accuse me of such motives (just as it is disgusting of you to accuse Rabbi Wolpo of two-faced dishonesty, and defend the honor of the politicians), when I am simply protesting against the repugnant implications of the view that you've polluted the forum by expressing in public here. As for the event, I am mentioning it to here draw people's attention to the raw evil that we're dealing with here, so that they can know to take appropriate action against it, which I believe is a worthy thing to do. I guess you disagree.

3. I guess it would be "cheapening the situation" by drawing from such events the "political" conclusion that it's pure, unforgiveable evil to expel hundreds of thousands of Jews in order to make these savages our neighbours, and that the protest against these plans should take this in to consideration.

4. Don't worry, I'm not interested in convincing you, because I saw a long time ago that you don't speak rationally. You're infected by left-wing ideas, probably because of the hanochos ho'olom from your secular education. My posts are rather directed toward the readers of the thread, who might actually give an ounce of credence to something you write.

[Meshulam]

2. My opinion is that it is disgusting of you to accuse me of such motives (just as it is disgusting of you to accuse Rabbi Wolpo of two-faced dishonesty, and defend the honor of the politicians), when I am simply protesting against the repugnant implications of the view that you've polluted the forum by expressing in public here.
Your motives are clear: distort, attack, etc. I never accused Wolpo of dishonesty. I accused him of being somewhat of a lunatic. I'm sure you and him both believe that you're speaking the Truth (and that anyone who disagrees, even slightly, is an apikorus or some such thing). It is almost humorous that in the same sentence as you feign offense at my prior post, you go on to make your usual rant about the "repugnant implications" of the view that I've "polluted the forum" by expressing. As usual, common sense and logic seem to be less fun than fire and brimstone. If rational debate is too much for you, then you are certainly not required to post here again and again and again.

As for the event, I am mentioning it to here draw people's attention to the raw evil that we're dealing with here, so that they can know to take appropriate action against it, which I believe is a worthy thing to do. I guess you disagree.
Nobody is questioning how evil the event was. If you feel the need to underscore it by posting about here in various contexts, then I will not protest. What I object to is your equating the "raw evil" of the event to the "appropriate action" that you have advocated on this forum. Your "appropriate action" is a political position. Wolpo and his Chassidim (you included) insist on using events (like this one) for political advantage. I object to you doing that literally within hours of the event's occurrence. There are numerous possible spins one could create. I'm not interested in spin within a few hours of the deaths, r''l, of many yidden. And I object to you utilizing this event, cheapening this event, by turning it into just another piece of evidence you use to substantiate your warped world-view.

3. I guess it would be "cheapening the situation" by drawing from such events the "political" conclusion that it's pure, unforgiveable evil to expel hundreds of thousands of Jews in order to make these savages our neighbours, and that the protest against these plans should take this in to consideration.
While I obviously disagree with your characterization, I agree 100% with the implied conclusion: it cheapens the situation to use it to advance your own political motives. You hit the nail right on the head for once.

4. You're infected by left-wing ideas, probably because of the hanochos ho'olom from your secular education.
I appreciate the diagnosis. If you could give me a referral, I would have this checked out by a specialist.
My posts are rather directed toward the readers of the thread, who might actually give an ounce of credence to something you write.
Yet again, it appears we agree. I wouldn't dream of trying to convince one of Wolpo's Chassidim to leave their Rebbe. I'll take the Lubavitcher Rebbe (and nothing you can say will convince me to take Wolpo instead), and you can take Wolpo (and nothing I can say will convince you to become a Lubavitcher). I believe in some limited form of pluralism, so I'm sure we'll find a way to make this relationship work.

[noahidelaws]

I never accused Wolpo of dishonesty.

You did accuse him of dishonesty, in suggesting that when he said that Olmert should be hanged he meant through death by the mob, and only retracted that later in a clarification in order to be politically correct.

What I object to is your equating the "raw evil" of the event to the "appropriate action" that you have advocated on this forum. Your "appropriate action" is a political position. Wolpo and his Chassidim (you included) insist on using events (like this one) for political advantage.

It's not a "political position" to condemn those who endanger Jewish lives. As the Rebbe said many times, Shulchan Aruch overrides all other considerations. This is about promoting Jewish safety, not politics. The "advantage" that Jews will be safe in their homes.

I object to you utilizing this event, cheapening this event, by turning it into just another piece of evidence you use to substantiate your warped world-view.

Yes, it's wrong to respond to mass slaughter of Jews by immediately drawing the "warped world-view" conclusion that ... we don't want the sympathisers and collaborators of the perpatrators as our neighbours, and that this is "cheapening the tragedy"! Got it!

I appreciate the diagnosis. If you could give me a referral, I would have this checked out by a specialist.

Sure, I'll PM you some names of good mashpi'im, for serious treatment.

I'll take the Lubavitcher Rebbe

Halevai ... one thing's for sure, the fact that you could say the things you do clearly demonstrates that you haven't read through the Rebbe's sichos on Shleimus Ha'aretz as printed in Korosi Ve'ein Oneh, which R' Wolpo knows inside out.