Never forget

[mosheh5769]

The title says it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOM3ErpDnvs

[Lamp Lighter]

June 1991.

Chassidim didnt listen to the Rebbe THEN

and Chassidim dont listen to the Rebbe NOW

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livin...l-Shepherd.htm

[Kookoo Kabalist]

Originally Posted by Lamp Lighter

June 1991.

Chassidim didnt listen to the Rebbe THEN

and Chassidim dont listen to the Rebbe NOW

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livin...l-Shepherd.htm

It's very bold of you to hide behind your keyboard and be moitzee shem rah on the Rebbe's Chassidim.

[Lamp Lighter]

Thank you for proving my point.

[Kookoo Kabalist]

You must be feeling really smart by now!

[Lamp Lighter]

I am actually feeling really smart right now. You see, italics are a little to light for me, and like you said. I am bold.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Lamp Lighter

June 1991.

Chassidim didnt listen to the Rebbe THEN

and Chassidim dont listen to the Rebbe NOW

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livin...l-Shepherd.htm

What's your point??!!!

[FlyingAxe]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

The title says it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOM3ErpDnvs

So, is this how Mishichistim vs. non-Mishichistim started? Are modern-day Mishichistim the same people who danced on Gimmel Tammuz and waited for the Rebbe to wake up, or are those people just a sub-group (or a separate group)? [Ignoring, obviously, that new people were born, joined Lubavitch, etc.]

[Lamp Lighter]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

What's your point??!!!

If you dont get the point then you wouldn't agree with the point.

So whats the point?

[Kookoo Kabalist]

For the most part, the people who danced then make up a large part of today's mishichistin. Then there are, of course the baal teshuvas - as you mention. I think though, that over the past 17 years more and more of those people have cooled down in their beliefs and have drifted over to the other side. And I think the tzfatim are responsible for making more antis then mishichistin. What we're left with is 2 extremes on both sides, and a middle that doesn't care. Moderate attitudes are history.

Many communities (for one example: my own), both, tore kriah/said kadish and danced. Everyone was very confused, and every hour Rabbonim were telling us something else. Many people would remember this.

[Torah613]

I for one, see no connection between post # 1 and post # 2. I also don't see the point behind post #2 at all.
If this is to be a thread of riddles, put it under the "riddle" heading.

[Lamp Lighter]

Originally Posted by Torah613

I for one, see no connection between post # 1 and post # 2. I also don't see the point behind post #2 at all.
If this is to be a thread of riddles, put it under the "riddle" heading.

Well if you cant see, then why speak?

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by FlyingAxe

So, is this how Mishichistim vs. non-Mishichistim started? Are modern-day Mishichistim the same people who danced on Gimmel Tammuz and waited for the Rebbe to wake up, or are those people just a sub-group (or a separate group)? [Ignoring, obviously, that new people were born, joined Lubavitch, etc.]

Things are still the same, and are even worse. In fact, Gimmel Tammuz has became a dancing day, as it was on GT 5754. They filmed it and every year they post it on 770live.com. The people are maybe not te same, but the phenomenom is the same. Every feast (as GT is a feast for them), the slogan is the same: People are waiting in great anticipation for the Rebbe's revelation.

[FlyingAxe]

So, what is the difference b/w GT and Lag B'Omer? (For those who don't dance.)

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by FlyingAxe

So, what is the difference b/w GT and Lag B'Omer? (For those who don't dance.)

The difference is HUGE.

1st of all, the Rashbi gave a clear instruction to rejoice on his Hillula; the Rebbe never gave such instruction.

2nd, on the other hand, the Rebbe taught us how to behave on the Yarzheit of a Rebbe, and there was no such things as dancing. We all know how the Rebbe considered Yud Shvat and how he behaved on that special day. If he behaved like that for HIS Rebbe, how much more should we behave in the exact same way for OUR Rebbe.

3rd, The Rebbe treated each and every one of us as his own child. It's disrespectful and disgusting to dance the day your "father" dies.

[Kookoo Kabalist]

Even according to the biggest mishichistin, it's not mufrach that in the FR's case we should be noiheg availus. Their whole point is that since no other Rebbe has assumed leadership after the Rebbe - the difference between the FR and the Rebbe is highlighted even stronger - and that in every dor there must be a live continuation of Moshe Rabbainu in a physical body. Seems you never quite got their point...

Many people would agree with you that it's a silly time to dance, but your svoros are faulty because you seem really misinformed - like you've never read up on the subject to even get involved in debate in the first place.

It's only disrespectful to you because you're trying to look through their paradigm without putting your own aside. They, obviously, don't consider it a day of "dying. They consider it a test of faith. That's why they keep their heads up high and dance. That's what the Rebbe would want us to do in any other test-like scenario.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Kookoo Kabalist

Even according to the biggest mishichistin, it's not mufrach that in the FR's case we should be noiheg availus. Their whole point is that since no other Rebbe has assumed leadership after the Rebbe - the difference between the FR and the Rebbe is highlighted even stronger - and that in every dor there must be a live continuation of Moshe Rabbainu in a physical body. Seems you never quite got their point...

I am not a lunatic! The Rebbe is at the Ohel. If you have difficulty to admit that there was an Histalkus, that's your problem!

The Rebbe is alive, sure! But in a spiritual life, not physical.

And you said it all: that in every dor there must be a live continuation of Moshe Rabbainu in a physical body.

So tell me, is the Rebbe alive in a physical body?

Originally Posted by Kookoo Kabalist

Many people would agree with you that it's a silly time to dance, but your svoros are faulty because you seem really misinformed - like you've never read up on the subject to even get involved in debate in the first place.

The whole France is Meshichist. So, to tell me that I am misinformed about their ideology, opinions, etc., is quite misinforming.

Originally Posted by Kookoo Kabalist

It's only disrespectful to you because you're trying to look through their paradigm without putting your own aside. They, obviously, don't consider it a day of "dying. They consider it a test of faith. That's why they keep their heads up high and dance. That's what the Rebbe would want us to do in any other test-like scenario.

This has become the new slogan: "I can do whatever I want, I know the Rebbe wouild have agrred!" HOW can you be so sure of that? Tell me ONE instance when the Rebbe danced with tremendous joy and was exuberant on Yud Shevat. If it was what he wanted from us, he would have been a living example of that. Moreover, The Rebbe went often to the Ohel. How is it possible not to visit the Ohel of your own Rebbe?

There is a difference between a self-made conviction that the Rebbe is not at the Ohel, and the reality that GT happened and that the Rebbe is, in FACT, at the Ohel.

[Kookoo Kabalist]

Not only are you unqualified to have this discussion simply because this is a subject that you're not educated in, but there also isn't a single shred of your post which actually relates to what I had addressed in mine. Aside, I also point out the hostile emotional flare - which doesn't belong in a logical discussion concerning the sichos that have been presented by a certain few.

If I do or don't prescribe to their believes is irrelevant here. I only stand to the defense that you do not have the rhyme or reason to attack them or their shittos based on your own. Like I keep saying - there are hundreds and hundreds of sichos in discussion. You're familiar with exactly... None!

Also, the Rebbe being alive and being at the Ohel are 2 different discussions. I'm not sure why you're mixing that in...

And "the whole France is mishichist". So you've seen a mishichist. Whoopee.

[Kookoo Kabalist]

Having said that, this conversation ends here.

When you have something of substance to say, maybe I'll respond.

[FlyingAxe]

I don’t understand why it’s necessary to use ad hominem attacks (i.e., discuss one’s opponent’s personality as opposed to his ideas).

I asked about the reason that those people who don’t treat Gimmel Tammuz as a happy occasion do so, despite the fact that the passing of other tzaddikim, such as Rashbi, is treated that way (plus, everything we know in Chassidus about the concept of the passing of tzaddikim). mosheh5769 gave me an answer which to me was very comprehensible (although I still have some questions). If someone thinks his answer vis-a-vis non-Mishichistim doesn’t make sense, one can explain why not. If someone thinks that the position of non-Mishichistim itself doesn’t make sense (although that’s a separate topic), one can explain why not. Using facts, ideas and arguments as explanation, not personal attacks.

Saying “You are not qualified to speak about this, because you have no idea what you’re talking about, so just shut up” leads to nowhere. I, for instance, do not become more enlightened as to the opposite side’s position, nor do I see from this statement in what way mosheg5769 was wrong.

[Kookoo Kabalist]

This thread's was opened on g/t with the intention to "attack" apposing opinions - not for the sake of creating discussion. I read it before the moderators got to it and deleted parts of his post. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact he isn't getting a discussion out of me. He didn't come here to share and discuss.

The discussion's been had here on Chabadtalk a zillion times already so I'm not going to go through this again. There's plenty to read up on this. Just use the search feature. No need to hash out the same arguments over and over...

[FlyingAxe]

I am aware of the search feature. If I posted a question, I obviously wanted people to answer within the context of this tread. There is something to be said for direct discussion with someone as opposed to reading archives.

Those who are tired going over the same thing again are free to remain silent.

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by Lamp Lighter

Well if you cant see, then why speak?

Thank you for the clear and concise answer. That cleared up everything.
In other words, only ask if you know the answer. Got it.

[Lamp Lighter]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Thank you for the clear and concise answer. That cleared up everything.
In other words, only ask if you know the answer. Got it.

A video was posted of Chassidim dancing for joy on Gimmel Tammuz. For whatever reason they had.

A second video was posted with the Rebbe saying that the Chassidim dont listen to me here in America so if I moved to Israel, they definitely wouldnt listen to me.

Your opinion is that not only do neither video have any connection, but that video number two has no business in this thread.

Sort of like ChabadTalk in general.

I have an opinion and if anyone disagrees with me I will invest endless amounts of time and effort to explain how I am correct and that the opposing view and the one who hold it are "stupid"

Thousands of posts on Rebbe, Moshiach, Gimmel Tammuz.

Now I ask, has anyone at the end of all this change his mind? Has anyone become a Meshichist or vice versa?

Yawn...

I should take my own advice and see and speak less.

[Torah613]

I am not aware I stated an opinion. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
[I also have a slight quibble with your interpretation of the second video posted - but that is another conversation].