Hemshech Ayin-Beis - Jewish Forum & Discussions

Chabad Friend · 05-08-2003, 09:37 AM

In the back of Vol.3 of hemshech "B'sho'oh she'hikdimu", there is a summary of the entire hemshech.

Does anyone know who wrote the summary? Is it reliable?

(It must be quite a feat to compose a detailed summary of the entire hemshech.)

I am still plowing through Samech-Vov and do not think I should get involved in Ayin-Beis just yet. But the three volumes look so beautiful just sitting there on the shelf. I thought that perhaps I could read the summary as a start.

Torah613 · 05-08-2003, 02:16 PM

It looks reliable (at least to me).

lambda · 05-08-2003, 03:08 PM

I found one typo.

Chabad Friend · 05-08-2003, 03:46 PM

a typo? Uh oh!

Well, as was posted today:

If there is even one error in the whole thing, then we can't believe anything he writes!

(CH"V CH"V)

tova · 05-08-2003, 06:32 PM

i am told that it is written by horav yakov chazan -who by the way can take credit for doing the most -lately -to print newly found mamorim from the rebeeyim

rebayzl · 05-08-2003, 06:49 PM

not true

lambda · 05-08-2003, 06:59 PM

rebayzl, give Gevurah his style back!

Gevurah · 05-09-2003, 10:37 AM

not at all... he may be the greatest of my teachers

so who made the aleph in geulah rebayzl?

rebayzl · 05-09-2003, 10:45 AM

You found it already in some sources.

But IMHO it is really irrelevant who came up with this particular Remez (allusion). In Chabad the Remez is not important, but the content.

I will try to check some sources, but I think that the obsession with Remazim like these is a deviation from original Chabad, and can bring dire consequences.

Gevurah · 05-09-2003, 10:52 AM

but its perek gimmel this week and my house doesn't have much b'gashmiyus for desert this week....

rebayzl · 05-09-2003, 11:07 AM

Perek Gimel has some interesting topics to discuss:

Chavivin Israel - the Chosen People

Hakol Tzafuy - Yedi'ah and Bechirah,

and best off all: Seyag Lachocmah - Shetikah

Chabad Friend · 05-09-2003, 11:30 AM

<<<I will try to check some sources, but I think that the obsession with Remazim like these is a deviation from original Chabad, and can bring dire consequences.>>>

Rebayzl, this is a powerful statement. Please explain. I was unaware that there was an "official" chiluk between Chabad and the others WRT the use of remozim. (I once heard that Chabad wasn't into gematria.)

What are the "dire consequences" of which you speak?

Answer must be longer than 25 words.

rebayzl · 05-09-2003, 12:26 PM

It is widely known that one of the main differences between Chabad and non-chabd Chasidus is, that in Chabad the Remez is of no importance and the content is the important part, which is why some questions on Pesukim go unanswered in some Ma'amorim.

As for the consequences, it is obvious what some people today are doing based on Remaizm.

Is it more than 25 words?

Torah613 · 05-09-2003, 12:45 PM

What does this have to do with Ayin Beis?

Gevurah · 05-09-2003, 01:04 PM

Ah

Quote:

and best off all: Seyag Lachocmah - Shetikah

but the desert....

Ayin - Beis....

The Gaon that sent me here refused to teach me Ayin Beis
so instead I want to know where the Aleph came from ....

why the Rebbe re-introduced an old idea and where its shoresh is ...obviously the maare mekomos makers did not know...

not what others are doing today....... I gave up such things years ago even for sheva brachos....

rebayzl · 05-09-2003, 01:08 PM

He did not Re-introduce an old IDEA. He just used an old and easy-to-remember allusion to stress a point he always made (that the concept of Yemos Hamashiach is not a negation of the current world but a transformation thru introducing G-d into the world).

I see the Gaon was right: Ayin Beis is not for remez-seekers like you...

Gevurah · 05-09-2003, 01:10 PM

the Rebbeim use remazim once in a while....when they do...example by MOshe Rabbenu from Megale Amukos from the Rebbe in a sicha for 7 Adar...
it is interesting to see where they took it from.....

Gevurah · 05-09-2003, 01:11 PM

even in Ayin Beis he quotes a remez from Shach al HaTorah
for the GAL by Yaakov and Lavan.....

rebayzl · 05-09-2003, 01:45 PM

Of course Remez is being used once in a while. But this is not what ayin-beis (and Chasidus chabad) is about.

Gevurah · 05-09-2003, 05:02 PM

obviously. but then why have any? There obviously is a reason if one is chosen quoted shem omru and not just made up or not brought at all....

masbir · 05-11-2003, 11:30 PM

The summary was written by R' Dovid Olidort, Chozer of many years and one of the founders of "vaad Hanachos", writer of most mammorim in the mems etc.

Torah613 · 05-11-2003, 11:32 PM

Oy vay - ah machlokes who wrote it...

masbir · 05-11-2003, 11:36 PM

not every ignorant statement becomes a Machlokos.

Torah613 · 05-12-2003, 07:49 AM

True.

Gevurah · 05-12-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

I see the Gaon was right: Ayin Beis is not for remez-seekers like you...

I am not a Remez seeker. I seek to understand CHabad Friend's misunderstanding..... and to see why Rebeeim in mamarim see a need to quote previous sources like that rather than just develop the idea lchatchila...

05-08-2003, 09:37 AM	#1
Chabad Friend Gold Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 813	Hemshech Ayin-Beis In the back of Vol.3 of hemshech "B'sho'oh she'hikdimu", there is a summary of the entire hemshech. Does anyone know who wrote the summary? Is it reliable? (It must be quite a feat to compose a detailed summary of the entire hemshech.) I am still plowing through Samech-Vov and do not think I should get involved in Ayin-Beis just yet. But the three volumes look so beautiful just sitting there on the shelf. I thought that perhaps I could read the summary as a start.

05-08-2003, 06:32 PM	#5
tova Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 60	i am told that it is written by horav yakov chazan -who by the way can take credit for doing the most -lately -to print newly found mamorim from the rebeeyim __________________ Make a point of indulging in at least one hearty laugh a day. If nothing funnier comes along, laugh at yourself.

05-09-2003, 12:26 PM	#13
rebayzl Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,354	It is widely known that one of the main differences between Chabad and non-chabd Chasidus is, that in Chabad the Remez is of no importance and the content is the important part, which is why some questions on Pesukim go unanswered in some Ma'amorim. As for the consequences, it is obvious what some people today are doing based on Remaizm. Is it more than 25 words? Last edited by rebayzl; 05-09-2003 at 12:34 PM.

05-11-2003, 11:30 PM	#21
masbir Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,287	The summary was written by R' Dovid Olidort, Chozer of many years and one of the founders of "vaad Hanachos", writer of most mammorim in the mems etc. Last edited by masbir; 05-12-2003 at 07:54 AM.

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05-08-2003, 02:16 PM	#2
Torah613 ChabadTalk.com Elder! Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 11,716	It looks reliable (at least to me).

05-08-2003, 03:08 PM	#3
lambda Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,284	I found one typo.

05-08-2003, 03:46 PM	#4
Chabad Friend Gold Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 813	a typo? Uh oh! Well, as was posted today: If there is even one error in the whole thing, then we can't believe anything he writes! (CH"V CH"V)

05-08-2003, 06:49 PM	#6
rebayzl Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,354	not true

05-08-2003, 06:59 PM	#7
lambda Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,284	rebayzl, give Gevurah his style back!

05-09-2003, 10:37 AM	#8
Gevurah Executive Diamond Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,052	not at all... he may be the greatest of my teachers so who made the aleph in geulah rebayzl?

05-09-2003, 10:45 AM	#9
rebayzl Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,354	You found it already in some sources. But IMHO it is really irrelevant who came up with this particular Remez (allusion). In Chabad the Remez is not important, but the content. I will try to check some sources, but I think that the obsession with Remazim like these is a deviation from original Chabad, and can bring dire consequences.

05-09-2003, 10:52 AM	#10
Gevurah Executive Diamond Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,052	but its perek gimmel this week and my house doesn't have much b'gashmiyus for desert this week....

05-09-2003, 11:07 AM	#11
rebayzl Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,354	Perek Gimel has some interesting topics to discuss: Chavivin Israel - the Chosen People Hakol Tzafuy - Yedi'ah and Bechirah, and best off all: Seyag Lachocmah - Shetikah

05-09-2003, 11:30 AM	#12
Chabad Friend Gold Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 813	<<<I will try to check some sources, but I think that the obsession with Remazim like these is a deviation from original Chabad, and can bring dire consequences.>>> Rebayzl, this is a powerful statement. Please explain. I was unaware that there was an "official" chiluk between Chabad and the others WRT the use of remozim. (I once heard that Chabad wasn't into gematria.) What are the "dire consequences" of which you speak? Answer must be longer than 25 words.

05-09-2003, 12:45 PM	#14
Torah613 ChabadTalk.com Elder! Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 11,716	What does this have to do with Ayin Beis?

05-09-2003, 01:08 PM	#16
rebayzl Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,354	He did not Re-introduce an old IDEA. He just used an old and easy-to-remember allusion to stress a point he always made (that the concept of Yemos Hamashiach is not a negation of the current world but a transformation thru introducing G-d into the world). I see the Gaon was right: Ayin Beis is not for remez-seekers like you...

05-09-2003, 01:10 PM	#17
Gevurah Executive Diamond Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,052	the Rebbeim use remazim once in a while....when they do...example by MOshe Rabbenu from Megale Amukos from the Rebbe in a sicha for 7 Adar... it is interesting to see where they took it from.....

05-09-2003, 01:11 PM	#18
Gevurah Executive Diamond Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,052	even in Ayin Beis he quotes a remez from Shach al HaTorah for the GAL by Yaakov and Lavan.....

05-09-2003, 01:45 PM	#19
rebayzl Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,354	Of course Remez is being used once in a while. But this is not what ayin-beis (and Chasidus chabad) is about.

05-09-2003, 05:02 PM	#20
Gevurah Executive Diamond Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,052	obviously. but then why have any? There obviously is a reason if one is chosen quoted shem omru and not just made up or not brought at all....

05-11-2003, 11:32 PM	#22
Torah613 ChabadTalk.com Elder! Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 11,716	Oy vay - ah machlokes who wrote it...

05-11-2003, 11:36 PM	#23
masbir Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,287	not every ignorant statement becomes a Machlokos.

05-12-2003, 07:49 AM	#24
Torah613 ChabadTalk.com Elder! Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 11,716	True.

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